Liz From UK

by Elizabeth
(Blackburn )

When I was younger, up to the age of around 38, I never had PMT AT ALL...people would ask me when my period was due, such as doctors and I would give them a vague response because its interference with my life was so low, I had no reason to care when I was due on.

I had light periods, 5 days long, no period pain. The end.

At around the time of my late 30s I noticed my breasts would swell before my period...I was THRILLED! Big boobs for the first time in my life was a welcome thing for me!.

Looking back, that was the first clue my hormones were changing.

Gradually, over the following years my PMS symptoms increased to include:

Heavy flow and blood clots requiring double sanitary protection.
Breast swelling and tenderness from day 14 of my cycle
Sweats day and night during the week of my period.
Horrendous anxiety attacks, phobias, depression, anger attacks that I was so ashamed off later.
Insomnia (Which I had never had that in my life before)
Spotting 4 to 5 days before my period started (And sweats)
Terrible period pain for the first 24 hours & nausea.
The week of my period I am always sick with flu like symptoms. Aching restless legs, lower back pain, headache, physically drained and weak... I just assumed I had a weak immune system.

I was going through a difficult time in my life 5 years ago too, so I am sure that only made matters worse.
Long story short, I ended up on an anti depressant for the first time in my life.
I am still on it today, albeit on a lower dose and guess what? It didn't help.

It took me years to work out that the mental and physical symptoms that had kicked in gradually had a cycle..and that cycle was my period.

I also had a polyp discovered and removed from my cervix 3 years ago which is apparently another sign of estrogen dominance..

I went to my female YOUNG doctor last year and explained my anxiety was through the roof and felt it was hormone related, ie: Per- menopause
She casually told me I was too young for that as menopause only happened at around the age of 54 so at 43, I was way too young.

She said I could have some blood tests and if my hormones were not balanced she could give me contraceptive pill. (I have never taken the pill in my life)

But even I knew the timing of those test were important...she just booked me in for when it was convenient for mention of my cycle dates... needless to say..I gave up with Doctors.

I have been using Progesterone Plus Serum for 3 weeks... not sure how much I am actually applying as the information is vague, so I also used another cream in conjunction, I feel like I have applied a LOT more than is advised, just dabbing it on morning and more at night.

I did not wait for day 14 to start either, I started as soon as they arrived, I think a few days after my last period.

My cycles are actually always regular and despite the progesterone, this period is no exception. I began flow today after 4 days of night sweats and spotting.

BUT even at this early stage, I never got anxiety nor crippling depression..

I was concerned the progesterone had to be stopped to initiate my period and so slowed it down a little the last tow days...

I now have 4 tubes of Natpro and just wanted to ask:

Do you think I am estrogen dominant based on my story?

If so, should I continue to apply 100mg (is that 5 applications of Natpro?) daily for 3 solid months even during my period?

Many thanks for your website and advise...


Comments for Liz From UK

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Jan 30, 2013
E Gallagher
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth Yes definitely Oestrogen Dominant. Your symptom list is so accurate, spot on for all the problems we get. Very interesting at about age 38 you began getting adverse symptoms, because from about age 35 we begin getting anovulatory cycles, when no progesterone is made. These increase in frequency during Peri-menopause until Menopause occurs and ovulation stops entirely. The average age of this is 51, with P-M starting anywhere from 5-10 years prior. Your timing fits perfectly, in spite of your doctor telling you otherwise. Many of them don't seem to have heard of peri-menopause, which is actually a far worse time than menopause. We do have a few pages which cover many of those symptoms, see Menstruation, Breast Tenderness, Hot Flushes, Anxiety, Migraines and Aggression. You say you were going through a difficult time, Stress does drop progesterone levels, which only makes matters worse. If you are using 100mg/day now and find that helps you, then continue with it. I generally advise anywhere from 100-200mg/day, although I have found severe symptoms need far more. It's a question of suppressing the excess oestrogen and testosterone first, getting rid of symptoms, then reducing down slowly. It should be applied a minimum of twice a day, but 5 times a day is excellent, particularly for something like hot flushes. I often advise using it daily, through any bleeding for about 2-3 months. This ensures oestrogen is suppressed and progesterone becomes dominant. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Jan 30, 2013
Reply to Wray
by: Elizabeth


I know what you're advising goes against the grain of what the majority of progesterone cream distributers advise and in a way that is exactly why I trust you.

Only a fool would give such advise if there was any risk of causing health risks..even with the website disclaimer so I KNOW you are true to your word and I trust your wealth of experience both personal and indirect.

I was Googling recently on the subject of "this" and I read a reply comment to someone who had mentioned your protocol and the reply was something along the lines of: "She's just making more money by pushing more of the cream...stick to the 20mg things will balance out in time"

I don't believe that for one minute and the amount of people you help here, many aren't even using Natpro is extensive ... you clearly "care"

I have 4 tubes of Natpro and I have been using ProGest ( 5 pkts 100mg daily) for 3 weeks.

Looking back, I think I had mild estrogen flare up symptoms but at the time I thought I had a virus...sweating, aching back and legs..nausea etc

I started using Natpro yesterday and I suspect I had applied more than 150mg on that first day.

I felt ROUGH yesterday but then that was the first day of my period so I didn't question that too much.

Today is day two and I have had the usual blood clots and leaking etc...but I can FEEL the estrogen surging ... I feel hot all the time...nausea at times... lethargic...headache... these are not typical symptoms for day 2 of my period... by now most of my "normal" PMS has passed... so I know this is the WAR between estrogen and the progesterone 150mg dose.

But you know what? Yes I feel sickly and jus want to sit around in my PJs all day ( I can thankfully because I work from home)

But mentally and emotionally....I am CALM and have been since I started progesterone 3 weeks ago.... that in itself is a blessing.

At one point 3 years ago, I had a 7 hour long anxiety attack... ended up sat in the corner of my kitchen floor just crying and crying desperate for relief because I had no idea WHY...

I could not "link the dots" It took me a long while to work out the association to my periods, years in fact mostly because PMS was all new to me... never experienced ANY PMS symptom at all until I hit late 30s.

Anyway...I am going to apply 200mg tomorrow and the day after and expect to be in bed for a week...

Jan 31, 2013
Reply to Wray
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth Bless you for your observations! You are 100% right too, anyone looking at the site with any intelligence can see I help everyone. Over 50% of the queries I get are from users of other creams. I could very well say to them, 'sorry, not answering you, ask the people you bought from'. In fact one user of our cream wrote in most irate, saying I should charge them all for my time! I never ask people to change to our cream, unless they are really struggling financially. In which case I do, as it's very much cheaper than most on the market. I might one day have to say I can't help those who use another cream, as I'm getting so many queries now. I open my computer at 7am and shut it at 8.30 to 9pm. I do eat, but never breakfast, only coffee, sometimes miss supper too! Not enough time. I work every weekend too. I used to have an assistant because I was formulating amino acid/vitamin complexes, and she did all my shopping for me. I even asked her if she'd get me some clothes! I've read the studies on progesterone, hundreds and hundreds of them. The unsuccessful ones used too little, the successful a great deal in some cases. The research on Traumatic Brain Injury was my best. But out of that work an even better report came, see here. Very, very high amounts were used, very high, with no signs of toxicity at all, only good. I always give the studies when answering a query, so that people can see for themselves. But I suspect they don't read them, and then come up with that stupid statement you told me about. As for the 20mg/day, I go into that on our Progesterone Misconceptions page. Interesting you felt you had a virus, as it can feel like that. Increasing progesterone can and often does, cause Oestrogen Dominance. It usually settles in time. Decreasing too quickly does too. It is wonderful working from home isn't it. Continued below

Jan 31, 2013
Reply to Wray Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth Ah but the calmness, you are so right. I stepped backwards this afternoon in the garden, missed my footing and fell into a pond I'm getting built. Felt very undignified, landed on my bottom too! Well I managed to extricate myself, very grazed arm, also very wobbly. Went into the house, covered myself with progesterone, the wound too. And immediately the calmness flooded through me. I've never had a panic attack, they sound too awful. But I did have years of high anxiety, and episodes of endless crying, and like you never knew why. I never had PMS, but I did have depressive times, at puberty, for 4 years after my daughter was born, then peri-menopause hit me. That must have lasted about 8 years, there were some good days, I think! I do hope you won't be in bed for a week, but please keep in contact. And if you'd like to chat to someone about progesterone, I take it the Blackburn is in the UK?, then please contact Julienne via her website here. She is also a registered EFT therapist, a wonderful therapy. Take care Wray

Jan 31, 2013
Feeling Much Better Today.
by: Elizabeth

The initial flare up seems to have passed. I slept well last night and was not anxious about not sleeping which I usually get following a previous nights sleep.

I am still bleeding (Does that indicates I am estrogen dominant , the fact I am using 200mg daily and it did not delay or shorten my period?)

This month my PMS was bad for 24 hours but the 3 weeks leading up to my period I was sick with what I assumed to be a I suspect it was a flare up of estrogen due to the smaller amounts of Progest (100mg) and Progesterone Plus Serum (oil) that I had started using initially.

I have increased the Natpro feels like I have already used 1/3 of a tube I opened 3 days ago and I have to say....apart from the 24 hour crisis during the first day of my period...I feel better.

Still a vague headache and earlier today one or two hot flushes but that's all.

I wish the Natpro tubes came in industrial size! I am going to need a tube a week for 3 months i think...

I am an online business owner (graphic design) with my own blog that gets 14,000 visitors a month ....and I am looking for my next business opportunity..

Might be worth me looking into becoming a distributer. Buy a in bulk and sell and help other women.

How would I contact you in relation to this?

Many thanks again Wray.

Feb 02, 2013
Feeling Much Better Today
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth I'm delighted you seem to be responding to the higher amount. When you say you are still bleeding, do you mean continual bleeding after a normal period? Or do you mean you are still getting periods. This last will continue to occur on 200mg/day, it has to be 400mg/day and over to stop a period. But if you have continual bleeding, then you would need to increase to 400mg/day, plus take at least 2000mg/day NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), 2000mg/day taurine and at least 5000iu per day vitamin D, this last depending on your current level. 5000iu is a maintenance dose. There's more info about NAC on our Menstruation page, taurine is low in dysfunctional uterine bleeding, see here. And vitamin D is a potent anti-inflammatory, which also stops cells proliferating. Please rub the cream over your neck, under your ears your face too if you feel a headache coming, progesterone is excellent for them, Migraines too. I gave you the page on hot flushes, as you saw progesterone does help, but amounts of 400mg/day are needed to stop them, sometimes more. So many have asked for larger containers! In case you didn't see it, we do have a 20 tube option which gets a 30% discount. But I see you have noticed the bulk option. The best is to send an email via this form here. You should get a reply! But in case not please let me know, that department does many things and sometimes gets bogged down in them all! Next time you post a comment, please give your web details and name. Although not connected to progesterone, I do like to support others. Take care Wray

Feb 03, 2013
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,

I meant my normal period actually.
As it happens, this one was shorter, not lighter as such but 3 days shorter..which is fine by me.

Had a kind of weird PMS right at the end, had this before..not sure what that's about but sometimes anxiety and insomnia can hit me at the end of the flow.

I would say I am now officially no longer on my period. :) (Thank God!)

I have no idea how much Natpro I have been using but the tube I started 4 days ago has nothing left to squeeze but I might get another day when I cut it open so thats a tube every 5 days.

I have been substituting with an USP grade progesterone serum (Progesterone Plus) during the day, just a few drops on my neck if I feel hot or nauseas but how much of "the good stuff" it gives me is all a bit vague .. as their marketing is focuses on "the delivery system" being superior so you need less...blah blah :)

Oh, I have also been taking DIM plus, 2 tablets a day for 5 days too. I've read good reviews about it. I hope that doesn't upset matters but I made an educated guess that it wouldn't.

So far the main relief I can defo say I am aware of is the ability to rationalize stressful situations, I feel erm... less anxious more calm less "OMG" about things that would quite literally have me in a state of high anxiety.

We got a new adult dog last night and she was whining all night so I only had 4 hours sleep..normally, today I would be crying and tense as Hell about tonight and whether she will keep me awake and for every day that happened the more of a wreck I would become.

Today, I am tired but I am also able to rationalize and remind myself that people have babies that keep them up for months at a time...this is nothing by comparison (I have an anxiety/phobia of insomnia which escalated dramatically 4 years ago during the a time in my life when I had split up with my partner of 12 years, my sister died of cancer, the recession first had an impact on my sales and I was being stalked and harassed with an online hate campaign from some woman in France who was trying to destroy my business (she was in the same industry)
I had also myself been through a 5 year waiting game following Malignant Melanoma stage 2 in 2005, so I was emotionally and practically stressed to the max.

Anyway :) That's a little about my life story lol

I have sent a ticket to your administration in relation to buying a truck full of tubes!


Best wishes and thanks again,


Feb 06, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well you have been through the wars, you poor thing! Interesting about the last final kick of oestrogen at the end of your period. Glad it was shorter too. 5 days per tube would mean you're using about 400mg/day, such a good amount this. I wish I could persuade everyone to try it, would save so much anguish, severe symptoms, new ones appearing and more! If the 'serum' is an oil based progesterone, it's not superior. I mention this and give the paper on our Progesterone Misconceptions page. DIM is good, bit of a mouthful follows! See here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here It's amazing how it helps keep a rational mind when confronted with a stressful situation. A friend experienced that when she first started using it. She arrived at work to find everyone running around as headless chickens, because of a supposed crisis. She looked on in amazement, but did realise she would have been amongst them before. Try rubbing the progesterone on the dog, the less hairy parts. It calms them too! Continued below

Feb 06, 2013
Update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Liz Interesting about the melanoma, lack of vitamin D, see here, here, here, here, here, here. If don't get a reply soon from admin do let me know. They can get bogged down with admin things! Thanks for your websites, will take a look. Take care Wray

Feb 10, 2013
Period 20 days early! yikes.
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray.

Started my period again today... I would not have known in terms of emotional symptoms...I "was" a little angry and snappy and did think to myself "I feel like I have got mild PMT" but I am not normally due to the end of the month.

I DID however get the physical symptoms, craving sugar more (which I am fairly good at ignoring) breasts have been very sore for a week..almost as soon as my last period ended and then today my cervix was feeling a little pain which is odd and only happens when I start my period.
Just noticed I have.

I already read that this can happen so I am not alarmed.

Many thanks for your feedback :)

Feb 12, 2013
Period 20 days early! yikes
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth Yes it can be earlier or later, should settle in time. 400mg/day does stop bleeding in some women, but others have found more is needed. If you feel the 400mg is working for you, bar the slight PMT symptoms you had, then I suggest stick to it. It's only if symptoms are too much to handle it's best to increase. Interesting the physical symptoms were stronger than the emotional. I wish I could get a handle on that, to know what symptom is first helped. But I've found it varies so greatly it's impossible! Many women complain they are not getting better, when in fact they are, but are not aware of all the hidden problems being corrected. It's only when something obvious gets better they think it's at last helping. If it hadn't been for my hot flushes going in ten days, I doubt I would have continued with the progesterone. As my depression only started lifting after about 3 months. My self diagnosed 'early onset senile dementia' went after 6 months! Please keep in touch. Take care Wray

Feb 13, 2013
by: Anonymous


I am at the stage of my period where I am getting period pain,and slight insomnia and anxiety... this is all typical for me and despite the 400 mg I am applying. (no hot flushes however)

I am so "tired and wired" I am afraid to keep loading myself with more and more cream because I know once things settled then you have to reduce it gradually (1mg a day?) I will be on a £11.00 bottle every 5 days for months at that rate.

*Unless I am misunderstanding?*

The cost is a concern obviously because unlike many women who can make a tube last a month, the amount I am applying doesn't even last a week and this is very much a long term therapy possibly a year before I am applying smaller amounts for only half of my cycle.

I have 3 tubes left which is 15 days so I need to order more.

I got the 4 tubes from Amazon for £11.00 each and they came fast because they were coming from the UK (where I live)

I don't believe I can get it cheaper than that even in bulk when you add the shipping fees etc..I have worked out 3 months would cost me approx £230 which is OK, fr 3 months but to carry on at that cost indefinitely, is a concern.

I am just concerned that when I try to reduce the amount or stop applying it every day (as you do) I will get all the symptoms come back and that would mean a waste of time and money for the first 3 months of using Natpro at the higher doses.

I will go and read your links...I have watched your skype interviews :)

Feb 13, 2013
Vitamin D
by: Anonymous

Oh before I forget.

I was tested for D3 deficiency 3 years ago when I hit that all time low and sure enough I was deficient (Blood serum levels 21)

I did a lot of research on it after that and was amazed at the symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency and my own symptoms.

I have been taking around 5 to 12,000 IUs daily with Micellized vitamin D3 1000 IUs per drop.
I place the dropper under my tongue and leave it there for 30 seconds then swallow.

Before using this particular type, I was taking tablet form and I dont know how much was absorbed as I feel i have systemic candida and have done for years...even went on a strict candida diet for over 3 years, no dairy, no sugar including hiden sugars, no yeast, bread etc, no caffeine..tons of supplements, I swear I was malnourished in the end, rake thin and depressed!

I just started eating normal again. Since then, my hormones have been the main issue and a terribly weak immune system...I am always catching a virus. I have cut back on sugar 90% the last 3 months and also stopped drinking real coffee too.

Haven't been retested for Vit D however.

Many thanks ;)

Feb 15, 2013
Liz Update
by: Anonymous

As you can see from my "worrying" on the 13th Feb post, that is typical "estrogen possession" lol

I know its hormonal related...due to the time and date etc and whilst that is of some comfort in the sense that at least I understand logically why I am irrational and doesn't stop the anxiety and stress response

As of yesterday late afternoon (Valentines Day no less!) all that just faded away. I slept at night, no more thumping heart anxiety and butterflies in my chest feelings...just "calm"

I am thankful that whilst I am still in the early stages of progesterone therapy, these acute symptoms only hit me when I am ON my period. The rest of the month I am so much better and I can only put that down to the cream.

Thank you so much Wray :)

Feb 16, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Elizabeth Cost is always a concern of mine, particularly when people need to use high amounts. Please get your vitamin D retested, as a lack of this definitely impacts on progesterone by reducing it's benefit. If you can get it up high, between 175-250nmol/L I think you'll find a big difference. 21nmol/L is shockingly low! With 12,000iu per day it should have gone up. But there are many things which prevent it's absorption, gut dysbiosis being but one. We do have a page on Candida you could look through. I've found caprylic acid the best, but in oil form. It's often called MCT oil. I use in for cooking, on salads, in smoothies, in my bath, it's a lovely oil. It does travel through the blood, and cells can use it as they would a carb, but without the adverse affects those have. So should help the systemic candida. I feel the candida diets go over board in their food restrictions. If taking caprylic acid, plus probiotics which help to suppress the fungi, plus avoiding the sweet starchy carbs and all sugars, it leaves pretty much everything else. I tend to eat only protein, fish, chicken etc, and green leaves, with a few non starchy carbs thrown in like tomatoes and aubergine. Plus of course things like broccoli/cauli. I rarely eat fruit, mostly full of sugars now, and little else.You could look through the links I've given on our Nutrition page for ideas. I basically try to follow the Paleo Diet. I use progesterone daily, and have for 16 years now, never take a break. I use about 3 tubes a month, I would hope you will be able to reduce to this level or lower. I love real coffee, and have always drunk it, and always will! There's evidence now that it has antioxidant properties. Rather than give all the papers to you, Dr Mercola has collated them all in his article here. It would appear your vitamin D is still low if you catch a virus frequently. Please have that test done. I've been on Amazon, but can't find any Natpro being sold there now. I have a suspicion they were sold that cheaply because of an internet scam which hit us. Last year we lost over 1000 tubes, although a few were returned. But the rest ended up on eBay being sold for about £7 to £11. The scam organisers seemed to be centred in Peterborough, hence the speedy UK deliveries they were doing. Please contact Julienne, I gave her details above. She should be able to help you, she lives in London so postage is very fast. Take care Wray

Feb 16, 2013
Liz - Update - No Need to reply Wray
by: Liz

I always feel guilty because it must consume your time responding to so many hysterical women! :)

I have to say this "20 day early period" has knocked me for six.

I didn't see it coming but Boy, do I feel it now.

I have had 4 nights in a row of terrible sleep. I usually get one or 2 nights of poor sleep in the 10 days running up to my period but once I start, all symptoms melt away.

This period I have experienced acute anxiety, anger, irrational fear, depression, crying, insomnia, acne, bloating, breast pain from the last day of my last period (ten days ago) and mild but persistent cramping for the entire four days I have been bleeding.
Little to no clots but certainly not a light period either.

When we are in the middle of all of that emotional chaos, insomnia only serves to reduce our coping mechanisms all the more.

Being tired and wired is no fun. "Dreading the Bedding" (Somniphobia) is quite frankly my worst nightmare.

It feels like an age since I was lead in that same bed unable to keep my eyes open as I tried to watch and giggle to Black Adder Goes Forth... the difference is like day and night.

BUT and DESPITE all of the above I have placed my faith in your research and I have to beat this estrogen dominance and it makes perfect sense to me that you have to put more progesterone in to get from A to B as fast as possible.

What's strange to so far, the only time I feel the estrogen dominance is when I am on a period.
The rest of the time I I am sleeping better and have a more even mood etc.

If this insomnia spills over to after my period...I honestly don't know how I will feel about things then because that's one "symptom" I struggle to cope with.

But as I am clearly "hormonal" right now then it makes sense that the insomnia is linked to the hormonal flare ups and so I am applying a LOT of Natpro. No way of measuring is there, so lets just say I am using a tube over 3 days whilst I am on my period.

I am crossing my fingers the insomnia goes when the period ends...

Thanks again Wray

Feb 17, 2013
Liz Update
by: Wray

Hi Liz Oh yes it is! Oestrogen is an inflammatory, excitatory hormone. It stimulates glutamate, our most excitatory neurotransmitter, see here. It increases free radicals, plus destroying beta-endorphin neurons in the brain, these produce endorphins which promote a feeling of well being and relaxation. Beta-endorphins also appear to boost the immune system, protecting against cancer, see here. This paper says "Although it is widely accepted that exposure to estradiol throughout life contributes to reproductive aging.... Recent evidence ..... of chronic estradiol-mediated accelerated reproductive senescence now suggests such a hypothesis. It has been shown that chronic estradiol exposure results in the destruction of greater than 60% of all beta-endorphin neurons in the arcuate nucleus .....This loss of opioid neurons is prevented by treatment with antioxidants indicating that it results from estradiol-induced formation of free radicals", see here. Whereas progesterone protects against glutamate toxicity, it also increases BDNF (brain-derived neuroptrophic factor) in itself protective, see here and here. It also protects against calcium induced excitotoxicity, see here. Eventually it works, unfortunately it does take time. And the lower the amount used the slower the response to it. If not going backwards if too little is used. Lovely Valentine's gift! So delighted about this, let's hope it remains. Continued below

Feb 17, 2013
Liz Update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Liz I have found at the slightest opportunity, oestrogen rears it's ugly head again. I don't think I gave you what makes progesterone drop and therefore oestrogen rise......
lack of or drop in vitamin D.... are you taking it, or missed a dose, or spent lots of time indoors?
high oestrogen.... aromatase, which converts testosterone into oestrogen, is working over time, or SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) is low, this binds oestrogen making it inactive
high testosterone.... SHBG is low, this binds testosterone making it inactive. Sugars drop SHBG, they also drop progesterone levels
high LH.... the pituitary is working over time trying to make an egg develop, secrete testosterone and oestrogen, and then ovulate
high FSH....the pituitary is working over time trying to make an egg develop, secrete testosterone and oestrogen, and then ovulate
high stress...... this converts most of the available progesterone into cortisol
high adrenaline (comes from stress or excitement, and a drop in blood glucose)..... this stops progesterone entering the cells
sugars of any kind.... they drop progesterone, plus dropping blood glucose, plus dropping SHBG
large meals..... because of the increased metabolic clearance of progesterone
alcohol.... this reduces progesterone levels and increases the androgens, ie testosterone
insulin.... increase caused by eating large meals, sugars, or meals containing sugar or starchy carbs
high level of phytoestrogens in the diet.... ie grains and legumes, soy milk, tofu etc these all act as oestrogen
oestrogenic herbs.... often given to women to help with symptoms

This came in a couple of days ago, so interesting, she gave plenty of good papers too, see here. Take care Wray

Feb 17, 2013
by: Liz

Sorry for venting...I am using this like my progress diary!

You really don't need to respond but if you feel my diary rambles can help others then that's all good.

I am at the end of my period now...or at least I think I am...certainly slowing down flow wise.

I am more calmer today and even fell asleep on the sofa after dinner which is always an indicator that I am emotionally chilled

I slept 7 hours last night, I awoke early but went back for 2 hours quite easily.

Breasts are still a little swollen and sore but nothing like they were 5 days ago but again, normally they would be "as was" at the end of my period so there must sill be a dominance at play.

I have ordered some Thyroid supplements with Iodine, Selenium, plus Tyrosine and nine other vitamins and minerals.
I am taking 10,000 IUs of Vit D a day. ( I may have missed a day now that you mention it) as well as Magnesium, a multi and I am waiting for delivery of Super B100 supplements delivery too.

My partner is saying "Its just making you worse!" but he hasn't researched what I have and I know and understand what's happening.

Its almost like losing your mind when in the middle of a hormonal whirlwind like that.
The inability to think logically and instead react emotionally is impossible to prevent.

I can look at the same situation during my period and then again after and wonder what the Hell was I thinking! And then laugh but at the time...everything is all warped and 100 times "fatal"

I used to laugh at the old "hormonal" jokes about women because I was never one of those poor I can so relate!

Our hormones literally determine how we assess a situation and how we respond to it and it's terrible to be so fatalistic about everything.

Lets hope the worst is over for this round... I can cope for a week like that... perhaps for me, my estrogen dominance symptoms wont surface until "that time of month" and if that's the case, that's OK.

Knowledge is power. Going through that and NOT understanding why is by far the worst torture. I know why it's happening and it tends to make me almost angry AT the estrogen like "I WILL beat you, you evil life ruining nightmare!" lol

I am sorry I seemed to have purchased some stolen Natpro from Amazon.
I had ordered another 6 tubes before I read your reply about the 1000 tubes going missing.

Just email me and I can send you the URL to the merchant gladly.

Warm Regards, Liz

Feb 17, 2013
by: Liz

Oh regarding Immune System and the timing of my period.

I always get a dental infection flare up just before my period starts... always ( I am booked in to get the tooth fixed...implant no less....ugh! so expensive!)

I always "appear" to get what I thought was a virus too but now I am wondering if it is instead the physical symptoms of estrogen dominance.

For the first 3 years (before I started taking Vit D3) I would end up in bed from between 2 days to 2 weeks every single month around my period. which what I thought was a virus it seemed to kick up just after I finished my period.

Aching legs and lower back (monkey bone area) aching between my shoulder blades (upper back) burning up, kicking restless legs...kicking the sheets constantly with RLS, sweating and clammy hands, feet and underarms and a general feeling of being fatigued, weak and shaky to even walk my dog.
Appetite was always fine.

I suspect this was the result of low Vit D levels AND the stress in my life at that time AND the estrogen dominance developing.

The onset of these same symptom type virus infections usually began with an overwhelming need to sleep for a day then all the above symptoms kicked in.

I was so sick for 2 years, I couldn't plan anything as my health was unpredictable and terrible and if I suddenly felt the need to go to bed early as I was falling asleep at the PC I panicked thinking "Here we go again..another 2 weeks in bed sick"

I work from home as a game texture artist and in the middle of a recession I couldn't afford to have months of my life too sick to work...

Those severe bouts of bedridden sickness seemed to have passed and I am now wondering if that's because of the Vit D I am taking.

At my worst I had pain in my even in the skin and muscle..I couldn't touch the upper arms it hurt that much.

This was all happening after 3 years of being on an extremely strict anti candida diet and then taking Threelac which after 6 weeks just landed me in bed for 8 solid weeks....

That prompted me to get blood work done and the Vit D deficiency was discovered.

As I say, these severe virus like symptoms no longer cripple me but I still do seem to have "viral" sickness which only I seem to get. If I get a bug my parter gets he sneezes twice and its over were as it wipes me out.

I would not say its M.E as there is no predictable pattern ie: I don't get sick following some activity the day or two before.

I don't have classic ME symptoms.

I have a friend is has M.E and she is clear that she just feels exhausted if she goes shopping of pushes herself for a day or two. I don't have that type of pattern

Anyway..I am rambling again! ;)

Feb 18, 2013
Liz - Update - No Need to reply Wray
by: Wray

Hi Liz Please don't feel guilty! I'm here to help if I can, and won't abandon you in the process. It is unusual for symptoms to continue through the bleeding too, usually they ease up, except for the cramping. But there's no telling as each of us is so different. I'm not sure if you've seen this page here by Gay. She gives some very good papers and articles about the chaos that can occur. I found this one here particularly good. Take care Wray

Feb 18, 2013
by: WRAY

Hi Liz Please vent away, I'm sure it'll help others too. Your symptoms, the severe ups and downs, do point to an hormonal imbalance, rather than ME. Oestrogen symptoms can mimic the symptoms of a virus, the aches and pains, shakiness, feeling cold, etc. It does drop temps, whereas progesterone raises them. Normal oral body temperature in adult men and women ranges between 33.2–38.2 °C (92–101 °F). Typical average temperatures are 37.0 °C (98.6 °F). In women it varies between the follicular and the luteal phase. During the follicular phase, i.e. from the first day of menstruation to ovulation, it ranges from 36.45 to 36.7 °C (97.6 to 98.1 °F). During the 12-14 day luteal phase, i.e. after ovulation to menstruation, temperature increases by 0.15 - 0.45 °C (0.2 - 0.9 °F) due to the increased metabolic rate caused by rapidly rising levels of progesterone. Temperature ranges between 36.7 - 37.3°C (98.1 - 99.2°F) during the luteal phase, but drops down to follicular levels within a few days of bleeding. Interesting you have myopathy too, or muscle weakness. This can be dramatically helped by progesterone, vitamin D too. See here, here and here. This last abstract has nothing on it, so I've pasted a passage from the paper which I bought... 'Substantial relief of myopathic disability by progesterone therapy'.....
(We report about a 41-year old woman who was suffering from a general muscle weakness since her early childhood....From July 1998 until July 1999 the patient was treated with progesterone suppositorium 0.4 g once a day from the 14th to the 25th day of the menstrual cycle. In July 1999 her gait had improved significantly and she could get up from a chair more easily, even her ability to walk up and down stairs had improved....Progesterone dosage was increased from 400 mg to 600 mg. In January 2001 the patient reported enthusiastically about the improvement she had gained from progesterone-therapy. The patient reported a clear increase in strength in all affected muscle groups resulting in dramatic functional improvement.) And for vitamin D see here, here and here. Please ask your ME friend to have a vitamin D test done, as it's a powerful anti-virus nutrient. She might consider progesterone too. Take care Wray

Feb 18, 2013
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray

Yes I did read that link, thank you.

It doesn't surprise me about doctors misdiagnosing. I have my own history with doctors and it doesn't end well.

They're "text book taught" and stick to what they read in their text books when they were in training which could be 30 years ago!

Few actually try to keep up with new discoveries, at least not here in the UK under the NHS.

A classic example of this is Vit D3 levels.

In the UK (depending on the lab) a blood serum level of 30 is considered the "normal" As you know, I was tested as a level of 21.

I know from research that 80 is the optimum level to aim for.

My own skin cancer was another example of doctors ignorance.

I went to see the "Specialist" and he sent me home reciting statistics and telling me its just a mole that is aging.

18 months later it was itching and scaling so I went back and sure enough it had developed to stage 2 Malignant Melanoma.

Had I taken that first diagnosis as "given" I would be dead right now.

A lot of people would have taken the first "diagnosis" as fact. A lot of people trust doctors.

They would just have kept on scratching and ignoring the ever growing mole..telling themselves that the specialist had said "it was fine, only 1.3% of moles develop into Malignant Melanoma"

Thanks to the wonders if the internet, I could research my own symptoms and compare to photos of malignant moles.. I had no doubt what so ever that mole was cancerous.

I have other horror stories about doctors but I won't go on :)

I slept well again last night...seems the storm is over for now.

Warm regards, Liz

Feb 19, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz Good heavens you have been through the mill, I had an inkling but melanoma, you never mentioned that. You have probably found through your research that more indoor workers get it than those working outside. i.e. lack of vitamin D again. Interesting you say some labs give 30ng/ml as adequate. As I do know Birmingham Hospital use 20ng/ml following the NHS standard. Although I have heard they are considering upping it to 30ng/ml, more in keeping with the new FDA standard. Research takes 20 to 30 years to trickle down, but when it does it's of course no longer new research! A book about the horror stories would sell well. I must confess to avoiding them, except for the orthopods, my daughter and I seem to go in for breaking arms! Take care Wray

Feb 21, 2013
Another Period again? 3 in 3 weeks
by: Liz

Hi Wray

Before I forget, please can you change the original title to something like "Liz From UK" because my real name is fairly well known online due to my business being online and Facebook etc.. I don't want everyone knowing the ins and outs of my periods! :) Thanks

Ok..I haven't entirely stopped bleeding since my last period which was 20 days early. There has been fresh blood "spotting" between the end of my last (early) period.

Today and yesterday I feel pain in my cervix again (usual PMT symptom) ..last night I had insomnia (typical thing just before my period) I also woke up covered in sweat which I did 3 nights ago too, I am having occasional burn ups, usually in the morning and right now I feel slight cramps like I am about to start my period again.
To be honest my stress response and snapping has been the same through my last period right up to today too...I feel physically and emotionally like I am in constant PMT albeit at various degrees of strength.

I have come to realize my "post period" bouts of sickness are iron related... All the symptoms fit, restless less, weak, fatigue, aching limbs, cracks and sores in the corner of my mouth, anxiety, depression and weak immune system in general.

So I have started using Spatone Iron liquid sachets 3 days ago poured into orange juice but it's going to take some time as
I have not taken iron as a supplement ever and yet I have been having heavy clotted periods for 4 years now, so it makes sense.

My concern is...if I DO go on to have another period any day now that will be three in 3 weeks and all of the symptoms that come with each one is running me particular the iron and insomnia.

I am applying so much cream externally and internally and I am a little concerned with these periods...I have never been irregular in my life and to have so many and lose so much blood in such a short space of time is a worry for me.

Is this normal?

Thanks, Liz


Feb 22, 2013
False Alarm
by: Liz

Hi Wray,

I just wanted to say my last post was a false alarm

My period has ended (2 days ago) but I have come down with some type of bad cold virus which I suspect was why I suffered with one night of insomnia and night sweats and burning up, its an immune system reaction not a hormonal one.

This is very typical for me.
If I am gonna get sick, it happens at the end of my period, which as I explained in my last post, I now strongly suspect it linked to Anemia even though I haven't been tested for it for 5 years.

I was tested low for Ferrous (?) when the hospital treat the Skin Cancer 8 years ago and I never really dealt with that because I had no obvious symptoms plus the doctor gave me some horrible tablets that made me sick to the stomach so I just tried to eat more red meat! lol

So, with the amount of blood loss and clots I have experienced SINCE that Ferrous result over the last 4 to 5 years and me never ever taking a single iron supplement the chances of me NOT being Anemic are slim to none.

The symptoms I believe to be related to Anemia include:

Bouts of Vertigo
Muscle weakness
Limb Heaviness
Out of breath when walking the dog up walking up the stairs
Fatigue & weakness
REALLY Weak immune system
Cracks and sores in the corner of my mouth
Mouth ulcers
Butterflies in my chest, not palpitations as such, more like adrenalin and for no environmental reason.
Headaches (I rarely used to take pain killers for anything)
Bouts of anxiety and depression

They all wax and wane apart from the obvious immune lowering directly after my period.

I have started taking 2 sachets of SpaTone iron which is mineral water with high iron in it.
You can taste the iron (yuck) I add them to fresh orange juice as Vit C helps your body to absorb iron and this type of iron does not cause the well known side effects.

I can't believe I actually over looked this now and wonder just how much of my emotional and physical health has been affected by lack of iron and Vit D.

So I am "back on the supplements" and I hope to see a difference in 3 months.

Anyway...I am continuing with the Natpro cream.. my breasts after my last early period are no where near as sore and enlarged as they were directly after the period before.

I am hoping this is a sign that estrogen is now being overcome by Progesterone.

Kind Regards and sorry for the panic, I was concerned I was having 3 periods in as many weeks!


Feb 22, 2013
Another Period again? 3 in 3 weeks
by: Wray

Hi Liz It is concerning. I take it you have't tried the nutrients I suggested on the 2nd Feb? The NAC and taurine? It's evident your uterine lining is inflamed and not healing, please do try them. They've worked for others and I see no reason why they won't work for you too. Interestingly NAC is used for depression too, taurine of course is very calming and an excellent anxiolytic. Please also have that vitamin D test done. If that's at a high level it increases the effect of progesterone, so generally less is needed. It's also good for insomnia, see here and here. Depression too of course. The problem with matching symptoms to a particular nutrient or disorder, there is so much overlap. For instance those symptoms you relate to low iron, are to me all related to high oestrogen, low progesterone. Although low iron does have a bearing on RLS, see here. These are more papers on RLS, see here, here, here, here, here and here. Interestingly reduced REM sleep latency is found in RLS, but it's also found in depression too, see here. Progesterone increases REM sleep latency, see here. Progesterone is at it's lowest level post period, oestrogen too. But it appears in many women the oestrogen level is still too high in ratio to progesterone. And of course it starts rising again 3-5 days after the first day of bleeding. The weakness I covered in the info on myopathy above. Oestrogen being an excitatory hormone increases anxiety and depression. And being an inflammatory hormone it increases free radicals, so also causes aching limbs. Cracks in the corner of the mouth is also a B2 deficiency. And of course a weak immune system is low vitamin D. How to sort out what nutrient or nutrients are needed! But please try the NAC and taurine. Take care Wray

Feb 22, 2013
by: Liz

Hi Wray

Think my "false alarm" comment is waiting for approval.

I have just purchased some N-acetyl cysteine now, if it boosts the P cream then "thanks" anything that will help.

The taurine you advise is included in some Thyroid support supplements i have just got 2 days ago, along with Iodine etc.. so yes, I am onto that already! :)

As it stands, I have a virus, I am off my food and my legs are aching etc.. I feels like a bug and I have not started another period as I feared.

There was/is some very very slight spotting but nothing major and its almost none existent today and yesterday, more like the end of a short and light (Relatively) early period that I had.

My breasts are no longer swollen or sore were as they never did settle after my last period (before the early light one)

Its very up and down..which is OK as right now I feel like Progesterone is taking over..don't want to build my hopes up too much obviously because I know I am early in the recovery yet.

i feel calm, sleepy (in a nice way) no longer "tired and wired" slept well last night despite being somewhat sick with this bug

I don't want to go into too much graphic detail but I guess I have no choice! lol

Before I started with the E Dom symptoms, I had quite a healthy vaginal discharge my entire life, more than most I am imagining but it was there for a reason and that's all good.

But the last 3 years, nothing, which I knew was one of the spin off symptoms of "getting old" :)

The last 2 days, I have noticed a return in the amount of discharge which is welcome as far as I am concerned.

Hope this helps anyone 2 weeks behind my own "recovery" because it IS scary at times when something you take or use seems to inflame issues...our gut instinct is to stop using it..we look for the "common denominator" and blame that.

Then you have the hormones messing with your sense of reason and logic and it can get scary.

There is so much info on the net and most is contradicted depending on where you research and you end up wondering who is right who is wrong and which direction should I turn.

I am following you lead :)

Many thanks once again. Liz

Feb 23, 2013
by: Liz

It feels like I am contradicting myself everyday ...

I **have** started my period again after all, just one week after my last very early period ended.

The time between my last period ended and and this started, I was spotting very lightly most red but sometimes brown.

This morning, I wiped fresh blood and enough to say its period and not just spotting.
I have some mild cramping this morning too although again, I have felt those on and off for a week...

No breast swelling at all all (that's a first) I have had some acne spots (rare for me)

So I am no longer sure whether the 2 night sweats and the occasional "burn ups" and one night of insomnia last week are related to this virus I have or were PMT symptoms leading up to this third period in 3 weeks...

You do say it will mess the cycle up for a month or so and so I am not too alarmed... I am just confused because I thought if you applied enough cream it could actually stop your period.. it seems to be increasing mine.

Other than the 1 night of insomnia, I have not had any emotional PMT symptoms...although the last early period, they all came 2 days into me bleeding (which is not typical for me) so maybe that is yet to come..(ugh! lol)

I have ordered the NAC as per your suggestions and will continue with the iron, 10,000 IU Vit D, Magnesium, DIM, Thyroid support supplements and hope this is just a very short very light period with none of the typical emotional symptoms..

Its all very confusing! :)

Feb 24, 2013
False Alarm
by: Wray

Hi Liz I'm very pleased it was a false alarm! Although I must add that if I got ill with something, my period tended to begin. Looking back I think this must be due to the stress of the situation, progesterone and vitamin D dropping, and therefore nothing to stop the bleeding. Hormones do play havoc with our minds, specifically oestrogen, being an excitatory hormone. It stimulates glutamate, our most excitatory neurotransmitter, see here. It increases free radicals, plus destroying beta-endorphin neurons in the brain, these produce endorphins which promote a feeling of well being and relaxation. Beta-endorphins also appear to boost the immune system, protecting against cancer, see here. This paper says "Although it is widely accepted that exposure to estradiol throughout life contributes to reproductive aging.... Recent evidence ..... of chronic estradiol-mediated accelerated reproductive senescence now suggests such a hypothesis. It has been shown that chronic estradiol exposure results in the destruction of greater than 60% of all beta-endorphin neurons in the arcuate nucleus .....This loss of opioid neurons is prevented by treatment with antioxidants indicating that it results from estradiol-induced formation of free radicals", see here. Whereas progesterone protects against glutamate toxicity, it also increases BDNF (brain-derived neuroptrophic factor) in itself protective, see here and here. It also protects against calcium induced excitotoxicity, see here. Excess glutamate allows calcium to enter cells, causing neuronal damage and cell death. Wiki has a good explanation of glutamate here. NAC is a powerful antioxidant, which would prevent some of the free radicals oestrogen produces in damaging the brain. Take care Wray

Feb 24, 2013
Due on Anyway
by: Liz

Ok so because I have been spotting at various amounts (brown and red) since my last *false?* early period ended 8 days ago, it is hard to decide whether I am or am not starting another period as I also have had mild cramps along with the spotting.

Technically, (not including the early 'false" period) my last real period started on the 27th Jan which means I am due on any day now anyway.

I do appear to be bleeding more today, not just spotting but not quite heavy enough to say for sure.

My breasts are not swollen at all. (thats the first time in 6 years)

I have had some facial spots. (thats how I used to respond in my 20s to my PMS)

I am tad emotional (sensitive to sad movies etc)
No anxiety or deep depression as yet...may come later though, it did last time..

I no longer know whether these "bleeds" are genuine periods or not.

The last early period certainly felt like a real period in every sense other than there was not as much clotting.

So. IF I am starting a true period...and my breasts are not at all swollen or sore, I see that as good! It's the first indication that estrogen is not as powerful..

It's all confusing at the moment as I say due to the early period and the spotting that continued since then.

I am continuing to apply the same amount of Natpro, still taking Micellized Vit D3 (10,000 UIs under the tongue)
Liquid Iron, Vit C 4000 mgs, DIM, Magnesium, Thyroid Support and Super Vit B 100 complex.

I am awaiting the NAC as per your request..

Time will tell..I have read how things can "blow up" at first so I am going to sit this out for 3 moths and hopefully come back and say "Brilliant! It worked!"

Many thanks Wray

Feb 25, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz It is confusing! Problem is each one of us is different, so I can't give you a fixed answer. I can only give you the nutrients which I know help, apart from the progesterone. The NAC, taurine and vitamin D, there could well be others I haven't found yet. I only found the study on taurine and dysfunctional bleeding about 18 months ago. Progesterone can stop bleeding, but I've found in some it can't. RJ still has bleeding in spite of taking the three nutrients listed above. But her other symptoms have gone. She often gives me updates too, see this one here. Another woman wrote in saying her doctor put her on 900mg/day progesterone which did stop it. I wish there was a simple solution but it seems not. Most of the women who take those 3 supps have been helped, I know of one other who wasn't. Evidently there's a missing part of the puzzle I haven't found yet. Take care Wray

Feb 25, 2013
Due on Anyway
by: Wray

Hi Liz As I said in my previous reply, I wish it was simple, but it isn't. There are so many variables. I wish I could recall how I reacted to progesterone when first starting it, but I can't. My symptoms were so many and so awful, I could well have got oestrogen dominance, but it would have been lost in all the others I had. If it hadn't been for Julienne, whom I suggested you contact, I'm sure I would have 'done myself in'! I had only read Leslie Kenton's book Passage to Power at that stage and don't recall any mention of oestrogen dominance. The doctor I had gone to for tests didn't know anything about it either, or about progesterone! It was only later I read Dr Lee's first book 'The Multiple Roles of a Remarkable Hormone', I can't even recall if he mentioned it in that book. I had heard Hot Flushes were helped, and mine had started. It only took ten days for them to go. Luckily it was quick for me, others have found it can take months, one woman a year. If it hadn't been for that I don't think I would have carried on using it. I didn't notice any change for about 3 months. Then gradually I did notice symptoms going, the last was 6 months after starting it. That was the one which worried me the most, loss of short term memory. So bad I could read a page 10 times and not understand or recall a word of it. Going shopping made me hyper anxious, I had to psych myself up to it. And then when I left I couldn't remember where I'd parked my car. I wandered round the parking lot pressing the remote until I heard it respond, I've never been so relieved! I was going to a gym, some days I could do the circuit, others my muscles were so weak I couldn't lift a thing, and left after 10 mins. All the time 'why, why, why' with no answers. But I did get better once I'd started the progesterone, so much so friends asked me how. I found myself giving talks to them, then to their friends, then it snowballed, and 16 years later I'm trying to help others in the same boat I was. I only have my own experiences, and of course the studies too. I would not have attempted this without them. I'm relieved some of your symptoms seem to be easing, let's hope it continues. Take care Wray

Feb 25, 2013
I know...
by: Liz

I know Wray,

I can only imagine how limited you must feel responding to the 100s of different reactions and symptoms women experience and women who like myself are also emotionally "charged" too.

I totally understand there is no "magic pill" (or cream) that will cure all ailments and I also understand the body and hormones is a very complex system and each of us are different.

I don't really leave comments expecting definitive's more of a way to leave a diary for my own record.. its important to read how we felt 4 weeks ago to how we feel now and in 4 weeks time...sometimes its easy to forget the things that really got us down when they no longer make an appearance...

I am in no way doubtful of what you suggest and what I am doing.. it takes time and I am accustomed to "healing crisis's' of all types... its often the case things get worse before better in many types of recoveries.

I am not "worse" Nothing is "worse" I am just not used to the spotting and irregular periods but again, I totally understand this is to be expected for a few months.. and as I say...there is a definite improvement on other symptoms...I used to get swollen breasts 1 week after the 1st day of my period and they just got bigger and more sore as the month passed... I am not having that at all this month... so that's all good.

As long as I am supplementing my iron, which I am, I am OK with it. It's a minor issue which I hope will pass over the months.

Please don't feel obligated to provide answers or reassurances, I have been down many health based self discoveries and I am kind of used to the initial drama.

Please don't worry :)

Mar 01, 2013
I know...
by: Wray

Hi Liz Thanks for the kind words, and the understanding too. Sometimes I'm at a loss as to what to suggest if things don't go smoothly. Or a persistent symptom isn't resolved, or one crops up which hadn't been occurring before and that won't go! I am piecing the puzzles together but even after 16 years I'm still finding missing pieces. Another woman wrote in after I'd answered you, about spotting and bleeding, and I remembered an article I read years ago about Italian women chewing on lemons to help. So I looked up bioflavonoids and found one paper which had no abstract, see here. But then found a commentary on the study which covered it, see here. So maybe this might be the missing part? I'm glad you made the comment about jotting things down, as it helps me too. As you say some of your problems are being resolved. Take care Wray

Mar 04, 2013
by: Liz

Well, I have left my update for a few days because things can change day by day and what might be an issue one day is gone the next.

The NAC arrived took 600mg for 2 days but then got really ill so I stopped that AND the iron I was taking.

The spotting has all but gone but I am not sure if thats down to the 2 days of NAC I took another NAC yesterday.

Hope it doesnt interfere with my period, like stop the bleeding that should happen. I am assuming it wont.

I have ordered and just done a Vit D test will be posting that today too.

In theory my levels SHOULD be higher than 21 (last test 3 years ago) because I have been taking large doses over the last 12 months but had 2 months when I stopped...

When I come down with illness like I have now I start to look at what might be causing it... and the most recent things (after I started the other vitamins) I took was iron and later NAC

I am unsure whether I should continue to take either of them.

I ache all over , back ache, legs ache and restless, I feel nauseous at night - lethargic- intermittent headaches- intermittent fever feelings, congestion (sneezy feelings) and intermittent sore throat.

It could be that my period is due in a week...

Breasts are swollen but no where near as sore.

My "normal" period should have started already (end of the month) but I had that early one 3 weeks ago so I think that changed my cycle.

I feel emotional (weepy at TV) but no anxiety depression or insomnia as yet, in fact due to feeling ill I am tired by 11pm.

Still applying natpro (3mgs) internally at nights and 3mg topically during the days.

Been reading about xenoestrogens

Apparently some expert claims to NOT apply progesterone until you stop drinking coffee tea cola COMPLETELY change all of your detergents, toothpaste, makeup, shampoo etc to ones that do not contain paragons and only apply it after 2 months of living this way.

I mean its a REAL life changing event ! I dont mind most of it but no coffee tea AT ALL????

the thought of drinking herbal teas all day and night ...ugh!


Mar 05, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well if I feel ill I immediately up my NAC and vitamin D intake. As it is I take about 3000mg/day NAC, it's one of the most powerful antioxidants there are. It's part of the glutathione tripeptide, in fact it's the rate limiting step, as it's active in it's own right. Plus it gets converted to taurine, another powerful antioxidant. Glutathione is the most important intracellular antioxidant we have, apart from vitamin D. Levels are low in people with any illness. NAC also detoxes us, it chelates heavy metals, and in fact your symptoms are also those of a detox. Tired by 11pm, I'm asleep by then! But I do get up at 5am. NAC inhibits the MMPs which break down the lining, I've not heard of it stopping periods. But it really doesn't matter if it does, there is evolutionary evidence we shouldn't be having the number of periods we do, over 400 in a lifetime. Rural women, and our hunter-gatherer ancestors only had about 100, see here. This is another worth reading, see here. There are over 100 oestrogen mimics in the environment now, see Our Stolen Future. Another excellent site, particularly for skin care products, is Skin Deep. Sunscreens are some of the most toxic substances we can apply to our skin. But phytoestrogens also affect us, and they are found in all foods, with grains and legumes having some of the highest amounts. As most people eat large quantities of these, they should be avoided, see here, here, and here. Continued below

Mar 05, 2013
by: Liz


Yea this is a common thing I do...I get sick then try and discover what caused it and stop taking some vitamin I recently started!

The fact is, I just have a BAD BAD cold and to verify this I woke up sneezing this morning so i am going to continued with the NAC even if there was/is a herx reaction as it seems to have so many benefits for weak immune systems that I would be fool to not give it a fighting chance.

I am just ill with a bug and that aside, emotionally I am good :)

Many thanks

Mar 05, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz I'm relieved!! Take care Wray

Mar 07, 2013
High D3 Levels! lol
by: Liz

Ok, so I got my test results back and I have a level of 163!

(Normal 50 - 150 According to Synergyhealth Labs)

So thank you Wray for pushing me to have another test I would have been continuing to take 10,000 IUs a day and as I am now technically in the toxicity level that could have been devastating.

It may even have contributed to recent sickness feelings due to the dosing at this level as toxicity can feel the same as deficiency but because I am practically house bound, it made sense to me to take it and especially since when I was tested 3 years ago, I was at blood serum levels of 21.

The stuff I take is highly absorbent as its liquid micellized D3 which I would hold under my tongue for 10 seconds then swallow.

So I have another blood test kit and I think I will test my ferrous levels as they were low 7 years ago and I never did take iron for it and I will also check my thyroid too..

Once again, thank you Wray for pushing me to get that could of got very nasty continuing to supplement in ignorance like I was.


Mar 09, 2013
High D3 Levels! lol
by: Wray

Hi Liz Well I'm very pleased you had the test done, but you are going to be highly surprised by my reply, totally contrary to what you're expecting! 163nmol/L is no where near toxicity levels, which are reached at 500nmol/L. My level is currently 230nmol/L, I feel wonderful with no signs of any problems. The toxicity they speak of is not vitamin D per se, but high calcium levels. Vitamin D draws calcium from the gut into the blood stream. High calcium can be a result of low magnesium levels too, and of course magnesium is the most important co-factor for vitamin D. It can be the result of primary hyperparathyroid hormone too. Vitamin K2 prevents excess calcium being deposited in artery walls and soft tissue and making 'bone' there. That's another important co-factor for vitamin D. So if you should be concerned about your dose and high calcium, when you have another test done, you could ask for calcium to be checked too. A normal serum calcium level is 8-10 mg/dL (2-2.5 mmol/L). Hypercalcemia is defined as a serum calcium level greater than 10.5 mg/dL (>2.5 mmol/L), see Medscape Hypercalcemia. If blood levels of calcium drop, parathyroid hormone (PTH) increases. This removes calcium from the bones and causes resorption from the kidneys, blood calcium must be kept stable above all else. PTH increases if vitamin D drops. Chronic elevated PTH would cause osteoporosis, all because vitamin D is too low, circles within circles. If we lie naked or semi-naked in the sun on the equator, for 20 mins to 2 hours, depending on skin colour, we make about 20,000iu in that short time. The higher the latitude above the equator, the less vitamin D we'll make. So 10,000iu is not a toxic dose either. In fact this study here, done by a few of the worlds experts, say 40,000iu per day shows no sign of toxicity either. Obviously Synergyhealth Labs are taking the NHS levels, as they give 50nmol/L as 'adequate'. This will only prevent rickets, nothing else. Even the FDA have raised their 'adequate' level to 75nmol/L. Specialists are saying it should be no less than 125nmol/L, with many suggesting levels of 175-250nmol/L is a better range. Studies of rural peoples have found levels of 175-262.5nmol/L, see here. Unfortunately the abstract doesn't give all the figures obtained. Continued below

Mar 09, 2013
High D3 Levels! lol Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Liz This paper gives a comprehensive account of toxicity levels, see here. Dr Veith wrote the seminal paper on vitamin D levels, he's recently updated it, see here. I see he's suggested 225nmol/L as the upper limit. This is another excellent paper here. If rural people have such high levels from sunlight, and showed no signs of toxicity, I see no point in the conservative views of government agencies. But being rural their intake of magnesium and vitamin K2 would have been adequate too. Take care Wray

Mar 26, 2013
by: Liz

Hi Wray


My normal period, that is, the period I had before starting using Natpro (and other brands before yours) is due at the end of or start of the month. (it changes as calendar months have different amounts of days etc)

But I had an early period last month, it came 10 days after I finished my last "true" period.

Then, if you recall, I was spotting for days after that.. and I was not sure if I was going to start another period.
I did not have another period and the spotting stopped after 2 weeks.

So March. Around mid month I thought I had started my period early. Had 5 days of brown/black spotting which again stopped but since that "spotting' mid month I have had raging PMT for 2 weeks..night sweats, anger, crying, rage etc.

I did not think it could be PMS as I had thought I had just had a very light early period but I kept saying to myself and my partner
"I feel so hormonal!"

Then 3 days ago, the spotting started again..and today my full period started.

This makes sense of the night sweats I have had for 4 nights now. No anxiety or insomnia.

What is important are some major stress issues over the last 5 weeks.

Stress with new dog that got sick and all the vets visits and emotional issues of what to do and whether to keep her... which lead to stress with the breeder who came round and threatened us for the paperwork but refused to refund us...

Then we bought a puppy (my first puppy) 2 weeks stress that comes with that...sigh.

Also, without really realising it, I had not been applying the same high dose of cream (400mg) more like 100mg as I was running out.

Just bought 10 more tubes of Natpro so I am back to applying it at 400mg again.


Mar 26, 2013
Spreading the word...the power of Natpro!
by: Liz


This is quite funny...but i am sure you will be delighted.

My sister who is 51 and my Mum who is 70 are now absolute fans of Natro, my sister also has her 3 daughters applying it too...

My Mum has suffered from chronic insomnia for 30 years.

She had a total hysterectomy at 43 for heavy periods + clots and was on HRT for some years after, then nothing.

I sent her links about Natpro and she researched your website and bought some and has slept BRILLIANTLY (relatively) since she started using it a month ago.

She says by 11am she is sleepy again which for her is a God send!

My sister was in a mess...she is 7 years older than me and was/is on the brink of the Menopause with missed periods, bad insomnia, emotional upset, anxiety etc

She was taking sleeping tablets every night and this upset me very much.

I was nagging her for weeks to look at your website. But she is hard to "advise"

Long story short, Mum gave her some cream to try in one of her desperate times and she was amazed by it.

She is sleeping better and so much more calmer during the days in her words
"I just take things in my stride now"

Hence, she now has her daughters using it for stress and anxiety as well as telling all her friends about it too!

Mum is so happy with me for helping her solve her insomnia which has been a life long battle for her with so much money spent on hypnosis, vitamins and "formulas"

My sister says she is so grateful to me for directing her as she would not have looked into it or believed it otherwise...

Mum had a car accident 20 years ago and so that was another reason why I felt she should look into it due to the possible damage to her pituitary gland and its effect in progesterone levels etc.

So there you go! ;) Its amazing how fast good word spreads!

I am glad because in a way, your advise and help has been "repaid" by the extra sales and customers the brand now has as a result of my experience and sharing my findings :)

Keep up the good work Wray.. whilst I might not be "there" yet in my own journey, it's superb to see how well it works for my female family members

Mar 29, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Liz Sorry you've been through all that stress, not what you need! And of course using too little progesterone would not have helped either. Have you thought of taking the calming amino acids? Taurine, glycine and GABA? They can help greatly, takes the strain off progesterone doing all the work too. So happy to hear about your mother! Please do warn her about Oestrogen Dominance as it can come out of the blue. The B vitamin inositol is also good for sleep. And if she wishes, she could look through our page on Traumatic Brain Injury. Progesterone is used to good effect, but usually immediately after the trauma, not 20 years later! And of course delighted to hear about your sister and all her daughters too! Thank you so much for spreading the word. So interesting your sister's comment about taking things is her stride now, I was like that too. Everything seemed insurmountable, small problems became huge. My sister in law too. Shortly after she started it she arrived at work one morning to find everyone running around like headless chickens, as she put it. While she looked on in amazement at them. Previously she said she too would have been a headless chicken! I do hope you eventually reach equilibrium, you've persevered so much you should be rewarded soon. Take care Wray

May 11, 2013
Update - Good News
by: Liz

It's been a while, perhaps 4 weeks and I thought I would give some positive news because we tend to only make the effort to post comments when we want to learn something, understand something or when we're worried about something.

My periods have been erratic and the bleeding hardly there.
My periods before Natpro were always very regular but very VERY heavy and with clots.
Since using Natpro, my flow is more like brown bits here and there and nothing to need a tampon or even a proper towel, I just used panty liners and they were happening every 2 weeks or so too.

However, no hot flushes, no insomnia, no anxiety, no weeping or depression, no breast pain or swelling, no clots or heavy bleeding for two months.

I have been getting angry and argumentative much to my partners misery lol but I will trade that in for the internal negative emotion I had previously.

I am not yet "there" yet but I AM so much better.

This period (the one I am having now) I did get breast swelling and pain but the bleeding is now new blood and seems more natural for a normal period.
I have noticed I am getting Dry Eye Syndrome during my PMS time which is new to me and may or may not be related.
But other than these all of my previous PMS symptoms I had have gone.

I don't have a way to calculate exactly how much cream I am applying as there is no way to measure the dose, so all I can tell you is I apply a "dollop" twice a day, enough to cover my forearm white until it rubs in.
Sometimes I will apply a third dollop mid day. Not sure why but I have started to reduce it tow just twice a day now.

It's been around 4 solid months since I started applying higher (200 mg to 400mg daily) of Natpro so another 2 months before the 6 month bench mark that some people say took for it to work, but as I say, I am no longer writing to you on your website in a panic so I think that speaks for itself!

Many thanks Wray!

May 14, 2013
Update - Good News
by: Wray

Hi Liz Thank you so much for the feedback, you are right I do need it, even the negative. I'm so delighted about your symptoms, it's hard to believe the number you had and now all but gone. I'd also like to thank you for preserving through the hard times. It's how to persuade others to do the same, as the blame is always laid on progesterone. Ironically if lowering the amount symptoms do get better, but it defeats the purpose. And how to get across it does take time to heal, it's not a quick fix. It can take 6 months in severer cases, and you had a host of them! Very good news about your current period having new blood, evidently all the old lining is now shed. The dry eyes are related, oestrogen causes it, in it's worst form it's called Sjogren's syndrome, see here. Two studies found significantly higher levels of prolactin, which is stimulated by oestrogen. One of the studies found a much higher prolactin:progesterone ratio than controls. Plus the oestrogen:progesterone ratio was greater, so it's not surprising it occurs during your PMS. Low vitamin D is also found in Sjogren's, see here and here. Your dollop of cream sounds good, providing it's helping which it appears to be. I suggest millilitre measuring spoons, often found in a kitchen shop, sometimes a chemist. I do hope you're not applying it only to your forearm, but everywhere. You're using it as it should be used, as and when needed, providing the daily amount doesn't vary too much. I've found this can cause ups and downs. Please keep giving me updates, I so appreciate them. Take care Wray

Jun 18, 2013
Update Concerns
by: Liz

Hi Wray,

I have been applying the cream in large amounts. I have not been measuring it but I have been consistent.
I don't stop applying it even when I am on my period and I rotate the locations from tummy, arms, breasts, calves and thighs and bottom now and again.

Things HAVE been better.

No Insomnia. No night sweats or day flushes. No weeping or anxiety
No heavy periods. No blood clots.

My periods for a while were just old blood and not much at that. They are now normal fresh blood and light.


My last two periods have come in 2 week intervals (I was always regular before like clockwork)

I am getting acne and so much anger and rage which is unusual for me. I used to get anxiety and depression.
I can feel the adrenalin in my hands as they shake when I feel a rage come on.

The last 2 periods (2 weeks apart) my breasts swelled directly after my period, I got acne mid period (this is new to me) and now I have been suffering with terrible rage, general worrying about everything, feel like crying and I just had the biggest bust up with my husband the week-end just gone which was down to hormones I suspect. (But I was right in the middle of my period)

So in short. Some things are better but others are totally new and I am confused as to why I am getting swollen breasts right at the end of my period and all of the PMT type systems at the end.

I worry that I have applied too much for too long and now I am dealing with saturation which I have read about.

I don't know whether to apply more or less.

I have been applying it in large amounts (200mg minimum..I think) for 5 full months. There has not been any out of the ordinary stress issues. I did buy a puppy 3 months ago and that was stressful initially but that is all passed now as she is more or less trained and settled.

What should I do?
How many mls should I be applying?

I am confused and guess work is not the best way forward...just applying random amounts of blobs squeezed from the tube can cause potential issues with dosage irregularities.

I can get a shrink type thing from the chemist that measures liquid medicine but I get confused with the amount.

How much cream in MLS should I be applying ? The conversion from progesterone in mgs to cream in mlx is confusing for me.

Kind Regards,

Jun 18, 2013
Update Concerns
by: Wray

Hi Liz For one moment I thought you were going to say you had been using 1000mg/day when you said large amounts, see here, here, here and here. You're using slightly more than I do, which is about 170mg/day. It's wonderful all those symptoms you used to have have now gone. So why not try following your cycle again? You know all about oestrogen dominance, so if you feel it coming back again you can either wait it out till you ovulate to start the progesterone, or apply a small amount and see if that tides you over. Remember oestrogen is still higher than progesterone after your period. This paper here gives a good indication of the fall and rise of oestrogen in 6 different women. You'll notice in some in doesn't drop much. We do have a page on Acne and Anger could could look through. I know all about the rages too! Also another page on Progesterone Misconceptions about saturation. Progesterone can be applied anywhere, the skin comprises 95% keratinocytes, these have many receptor sites, see here. Even the hair follicles absorb it well, see here. The palms and soles absorb very well, so apply it all over. The best is to use a metric measuring spoon, available in kitchen or health shops, or on the internet. 1 metric teaspoon is 5ml. 1ml of Natpro contains 33.3mg progesterone. So if you want to stick with the 200mg/day you would need to use 6ml of cream. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Jun 20, 2013
by: Liz

Hi Wray,

Thanks for replying.

Its that Mercola crops up when you type "progesterone" into Google and you immediately go to it as it's titled:

"Complications with Progesterone Cream"

He claims that he has found women with very high serum levels of Testosterone who have been using Progesterone Cream and that a break for two years (!) to "clear the body" out and then apply it internally.

I am not saying it's not working anymore because as I say, there are too many symptoms that have gone.. no heavy flushes or night sweats, no insomnia..

I am just worried they are starting to creep back..

Acne is something I USED to get in PMT in my 20s so it making a reappearance does not concern me.

Spots are NO issue compared to the other nightmare symptoms I was getting and in a way, it is encouraging because if I used to get some zits on my period in my 20s then that indicates to me at least, that my hormones are behaving like they did when I was younger and isn't that what we want?

I have had a bad period this time compared to the 3 before it so it's taken me back a little as its so easy to forget what you used to be like once all the symptoms have passed.

Is it testosterone that causes rage? It's not one of my normal PMS flavours, was more of a anxiety and depression type person.

If so, could the pro cream be pushing the testosterone and cortisone levels up?

I have no clue by the way, I am just asking.

So, you think I should be slowing the cream down now?
Just applying a small amount until I ovulate?

I don't know when I ovulate! lol I have never tracked these things and with my periods now being erratic I would not know when to test for it.

Thanks for the breakdown in how much cream.

I DO suspect I have been applying it in random doses some days missing a dose others adding one and I know you have said this can cause ups and downs.

I think I need to measure the dosage and be more aware of how much I am applying rather than just slapping some on as and when I remember.

I have even squeezed really large amounts out in a rage moment so I have not been applying it in steady doses at all


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