by KittyMiss
(New England, USA)

I had a hysterectomy when I was 43 due to severe endometriosis. My cervix was left and ovaries taken out. I insisted I have an hrt patch and when that did not work out so well, I ordered from overseas something called estriodial valerate.

For years I took it and never had hot flashes. I had all other kinds of symptoms such as anxiety depression and many other miserable things but thought that was just the way I was since I have suffered since I was a teenager.

Recently at age 55, I ran out of the Estriodial and due to finances was not able to purchase it for over a month. I have horrible hot flashes.

I began reading that I also needed progesterone and that might help a lot of my symptoms. I ordered it and it arrived a month ago. I began taking it immeditely but but became very groggy and the hot flashes got worse.

I stopped taking the progesterone. I just take the estriodial because that is what I did for years and had not hot flashes.

I dont know what to do. THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION I HAVE: Now I am reading that my body fat makes the estrogen and I really need progesterone. But why did I have no hot flashes and a lot of calm times when I only took estrogen all those years?

The hot flashes are horrible and I have lots of anxiety and depression but I have had that all my life.

I cant go to a docotr. I have no money for one and the one free clinic I can go to, the doctor while sympathetic just wants to puyt me on an anti-depressant.

Please do not advise me to try and find another doctor. I cant, I only work partime and I am in severe financial straits. I have been looking for fulltime work for several years and I have a college degree and the employment situation is terrible here, but if I can get my self feeling better physically I can face this a lot better.

Can anyone advise?!!! Written 9/16/13 by KittyMiss

Comments for Applene

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Sep 22, 2013
by: Wray

Hi KittyMiss I'm surprised they gave you the HRT, as oestrogen is the one thing which exacerbates Endometriosis. It was an excess of this which caused all those other symptoms you had since a teenager. We do have a page on Hot Flushes which hopefully will explain the anomaly. And another on Anxiety. The last thing I'm going to ask you to do is find another doctor! It's a rare breed that knows anything about hormones in women, and what they can do to us. Even rarer to find one who knows about progesterone. From your symptoms you've had a deficiency since puberty. The amount of progesterone you were recommended to use was far too low, hence a worsening of your symptoms. It stimulated the oestrogen which lead to Oestrogen Dominance. I've found for hot flushes and other severe symptoms 400mg/day is needed. But please have a vitamin D test done before you try it again, it could be your level is low. A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the following websites, Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L, and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray

Sep 24, 2013
Kittymiss, New England, USA
by: Applene

Hi Wray, thanks for commenting. Read what happened to me when I took the progesterone!!!

I dont have endometriosis anymore because I had a complete hysterectomy 12 years ago. Twelve years ago I worked, had full health insurance and access to services at a very world famous hospital. That is when I began to take the estrogen. I did this on my own. I tried some progesterone cream but it must of been way too low and since the estrogen got rid of the hot flashes, I thought I was okay. No doctor would give me anything so I ordered progynova from reputable pharmacies in England and India. I knew nothing about progesterone.

Anyway now I am on 10,000 IU of vitamin D and 400 to 600 mg progesterone per day. I insert vaginally. The first time I did this it was in the middle of the night. I could not sleep, as usual. I was miserable, exhausted and I was sitting at my dining room table reading stuff on your website and decided to try it vaginally.

About twenty minutes later WHAM!!!! I felt like I had suddenly been hit with a heavy dose of alcohol or anethesia!! I dont drink or drug at all but the feeling was quite pleasant. I stood up and the chair fell over. I could hardly stay conscious or stand! I knew I had to lay down immediately. I was not afraid at all. I ended up clinging to the wall as I made my way back to bed. I instantly fell asleep and slept for 9 hours solid. I HAVE NOT DONE THAT FOR YEARS!!

I take it every night now and just feel sleepy but not like I am going to pass out. I only take it when I am lying in bed just to make sure!!

I feel a lot better about everything, less anxious and depressed, I am SLEEPING!!!! and actually lost a pound but am not dieting, just eating regular. Before I had to struggle and diet just to maintain my weight.

Unfortunately I have zero money for a doctor and the free one I see has no interest in progesterone therapy but did warn me about the dangers and asked about the dosage. I laughed and gave him all the literature I could find about it.

Where I live I am not eligible for any assistance or welfare. Why? Because I own a tiny home and work partime. I am a college graduate, paid for my education myself, I worked fulltime all my life until 2008, I live in one of the wealthiest states in the USA, yet I get nothing because I work partime instead of doing nothing and giving up my home. I could get whatever I wanted if I decided to do nothing and let the house go. It is tough but I have my pride and now with the progesterone, vitamin D and 8 HOURS OF SLEEP EVERY NIGHT, I can face all this!

Thank you Wray from the bottom of my heart, and I will keep you posted.

Sep 27, 2013
Kittymiss, New England, USA
by: Wray

Hi Appelene I apologise, as I called you Kittymiss! I get very confused by the subject lines. When I have to fill them in I never know what to put in what line. I can't believe the response you had in such a short time, I'm so delighted though, remarkable. According to the papers, most of the progesterone if applied vaginally is sequestered in the uterus, here, here, here, here and here. But it does seem as if some escapes and does it's stuff. Are you using a cream or suppositories, I'd love to know. How wonderful to be sleeping again too. That's something which has never happened to me, but knowing how I love my sleep, I would be very upset if it did happen! I'm also delighted you've lost some weight, this is the one problem I have with women who write in. Too many complain of weight gain, which does occur if they use too little, which of course they do. Oestrogen upsets blood glucose, see here, which increases appetite. Not only that it causes cells to proliferate including fat cells, see here, here, here, here and here. And of course vitamin D helps weight loss too. Don't forget to have a test done after about 6 months. The cheapest is Birmingham Hospital, they send out test kits for £30 and the results back by email. Ignore their 'adequate' level, far too low, they use the NHS standard of 20ng/ml. Even the FDA have set theirs at 30ng/ml. I can't believe your story, what prejudice against a working human, and not one bumming off the state! Would love to know how you get on, always so good to hear such a success story occurring so quickly! Take care Wray

Sep 27, 2013
by: Applene/Kittymiss

Hi Wray:

Sorry about the name game, either one is fine!

Still doing pretty good but getting up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and it is like a torrent now! I also am having some muscle cramps in my calves. I wonder if that is because of an increase in the release of fluids in my body and I am losing minerals and or electrolytes. Need to read up on what you have found out about that.

I have the gel progesterone capsules and whether I take them orally or vaginally, seem to still get that sleepy affect but it is much slower vaginally.

I have been using mindoxil topically for two years to keep my hair. I use it religiously and actually have very nice hair but if I quit using it my hair falls out horribly within a month. Maybe the progesterone will enable me to get off of it.

You mentioned a hospital in Birmingham that does testing, I assume that is in England and I live in the USA. I am wondering if they would accept a sample and do a test from overseas?

Suzanne Sommers (actress)wrote a book about HRT and has a list of doctors sympathetic to progesterone therapy and I am saving money to see one since I have no health insurance and am not likely to have any in the near future.

When I get close to running out of the progesterone capsules, I am going to order natpro. Hopefully by then I will have been tested and will be able to administer the perfect amount.

One sad note, many, many years ago (1930's), my grandmother had a complete hysterectomy when she was quite young. She spent a lot of her life in psychiatric hospitals and the last 25 years was on lithium. I wonder if all she needed was progesterone?

Sep 29, 2013
Applene/Kittymiss Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Applene That is so sad about your grandmother, a hyst can send us into hormonal havoc, see this comment on 'Hormonal bipolar Menstrual psychosis the answer' here. She was probably very short of vitamin D too, as a lack of that leads to behavioural disorders, see here, here and here. And more here, here, here, here, here and here. Take care Wray

Oct 05, 2013
by: KittyMiss/Applene

Wray I cant find a place to order progesterone cream I trust. I tried to order Natpro but they keep saying they are out of it.

Do you know of a good alternative cream, there are so many out there?

While I have been feeling better, I have a long way to go and will be out of my progesterone pills in a few days and I am starting to panic.

Any advice would be appreciated!!!

Oct 09, 2013
by: Wray

Hi Applene I'm so sorry about the stock outs. We have doubled our production this past month, doubling it again this month, and in November too. I just hope this copes, as I can't face another stock out. ProgesterAll is good, no nasties in it, but it is half the strength, so you'll have to use twice as much cream. Alternatively we have a distributor in the UK who has stock, and she has sent stock to her daughter in NY. If you want to opt for this, please contact Julienne via her website here. Take care Wray

Oct 09, 2013
Natpro available from daughter in US
by: Jules

Hi, I see Wray suggested you contact me. My daughter has her own stock in New York and will be happy to help you. Please email me. Kind regards Jules

Oct 30, 2013
Kittymiss/New England USA
by: Applene

Hi Wray:
I have a question and want to give you an update. Initially I liked the progesterone but began to have some problems but you said I would so I have stuck with it. From thirty to forty hot flashes per day to one a day, today none!! I had so many weird feelings and felt so yucky but about 70% has faded. The only thing is I wake up after two to four hours of sleep, I hate this. I usually have to go to the bathroom but for about six years I have had a condition where urge to urinate is overwhelming. Thinking that that may be due to the estrogen dominance I have been suffering from. I still wake up, feel annoyed but this time I am not anxious and go back to sleep in about an hour, instead of the usual exploding anxiety and up for hours. The only time I sleep all night is tons of progesterone but I am way too groggy and cranky the next day.

Also I tend to react very, very fast to any medication. A lot of times doctors dont believe me, but I know my body. On this forum it seems that most women take longer to react to progesterone and go thru the cycle of feeling crummy at first and gradually better. I seem to race through everything and all my life have reacted to most meds this way.

I am no longer taking estrodial valerate (YAY!!), just the progesterone. (I dont have a uterous or ovaries, I am 55)

My question is this: (I think you have answered this somewhere, but I could not find it and had to make absolutely sure) I know taking the progesterone capsules orally, most is destroyed. So several days ago I started to pierce them with a pin, squeeze out contents and rub between my big toe and on the top of my feet. (I once read somewhere between the big toe and second toe, stuff is absorbed easily). I massage in very well, then put on a pair of socks and shoes. I read on the package it is suspended in peanut oil. AM I ABSORBING THIS? IS THIS OKAY??? I have some organic coconut oil I use in cooking a lot, should I mix it in that? I started doing this at night (200 mg) and in the morning (200 mg). I find this avoids the groggy feeling which was pleasant at first due to my insomnia but now I really want to be more alert during the day.

I also eat the empty capsule, I know I sound nuts but I want all progesterone!!

Am I getting this progesterone in my body? Not able to purchase Natpro for about another month so need to make do with the progesterone capsules I have, Each on is 200 mg and says it has peanut oil. So to wrap it up, I am trying to get 400 mg of progesterone in my body.

Blessings, a bunch of beautiful roses to you, hugs and thank you, thank you for your help!!

Nov 03, 2013
Kittymiss/New England USA
by: Wray

Hi Applene Well I couldn’t be more delighted. The yucky feelings are of course due to the oestrodial valerate, you were detoxing from that. The urge to urinate could well be due to the oestrogen. It swells tissue, including the urinary sphincter. If this can’t close tightly, the urge would be very great. Your adrenals are probably stressed with the stress you’ve been through. So please try 1/2 tsp salt in warm water before you go to bed. The adrenals need sodium to function well, and a lack of salt can cause sleep issues. Let me know if this helps. Your treatment of the capsules is exactly what I advise, including eating it! But I would add the contents to some body cream, or the coconut oil which is the oil we use in the Natpro, it makes it easier to apply. The whole of the sole of the foot absorbs stuff easily, I often put the cream there. I’m pleased the 400mg/day is helping, hopefully you’ll be able to cut back once all symptoms have gone, or dimmed. Did you manage to get hold of Jules and her daughter in NY for the Natpro? Blessings to you too, take care Wray

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