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Does or Can Progesterone Metabolize Into Estrogen?

by Lily
(Las Vegas, NV, USA)

Hi Wray,

I've been told by a few medical practitioners that progesterone can be metabolized into estrogen, and therefore they recommend keeping progesterone minimized. Obviously this contradicts with your position on making progesterone dominant, but do you know specifically what they're referring to, or what they may not be understanding? Possibly they're referencing the initial phase of using progesterone cream, where it excites estrogen receptors, but in either case, I like having as much basis and scientific information available, and can't seem to find any papers or information confirming this online. Any insight you have is most appreciated. Thanks so much in advance.

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Jul 24, 2012
 can progesterone metabolize into estrogen?
by: Cheryl

Lily,

Actually progesterone can be converted into estrogen. Progesterone can be converted into 17-hydroxyprogesterone which can be converted into Androstenedione which is either converted into testosterone or the estrogens.
Jul 25, 2012
 Does or Can Progesterone Metabolize Into Estrogen?
by: Wray

Hi Lily Yes it is eventually converted into oestrogen, it's the precursor to all the steroid hormones. Plus cortisol and aldosterone. There are three main groups of steroids, glucocorticoids, mineralocorticoids and androgens…..

Mineralocorticoids…..
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → Corticosterone → Aldosterone

Glucocorticoids…
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → 11-Deoxycortisol → Cortisol → Cortisone

Androgens…..
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → Androstenedione → Adrenosterone → two further hormones
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → Androstenedione → Testosterone → DHT
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → Androstenedione → Testosterone → Oestradiol ⇄ Oestrone → Oestriol (also Oestradiol → Oestriol)

There's a further steroid pathway which doesn't involve progesterone……
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → 17-OH-Pregnenolone → DHEA → Androstenediol → Testosterone → DHT

Each month women make more testosterone than oestrogen, but most of it is converted to oestradiol by the enzyme aromatase. See the last pathway above under Androgens. So one could argue about keeping progesterone low to prevent testosterone production! Unfortunately the reverse occurs, as this often happens in women with PCOS. One of the major problems in PCOS is anovulation, which leads to low or no progesterone being secreted. This allows the androgens to increase, leading to acne, facial and body hair, scalp hair loss, plus oily skin and hair, some of the symptoms of PCOS. One reason men suffer far more from acne etc than women. Continued below.
Jul 25, 2012
 Does or Can Progesterone Metabolize Into Estrogen? Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Lily One thing always seems to be forgotten, all the hormones, neurotransmitters too, affect each other. For instance progesterone influences oestrogen, testosterone, LH, FSH, prolactin, plus the neurotransmitters dopamine, serotonin and GABA. In fact dopamine acts via an 'empty' progesterone receptor. An excess of any of the above hormones will suppress progesterone, PCOS being a prime example, the reverse is also true. To lower oestrogen and testosterone it's essential sufficient SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) is available. If bound to SHBG they become inactive, but if SHBG is low, more free oestrogen and testosterone are available. It's the free hormone which causes the response, the higher it is the worse the symptoms. Progesterone raises levels of SHBG so binding more of the two hormones, particularly testosterone which has high affinity to it. This of course will mean there is less to convert to the three oestrogens, see here. Progesterone is obviously not bound to SHBG, but to transcortin, also known as corticosteroid-binding globulin. It's regulated by oestrogen, so if oestrogen is high, progesterone will be bound, causing levels to drop, or become unavailable. SHBG is lowered by the sugars, including those found in all grains, legumes, dairy and sweet starchy fruits and vegetables. Fructose, sucrose and glucose (all carbs are converted into glucose), reduce SHBG by 80, 50 and 40% respectively, see here. It's best to avoid all the foods and sugars mentioned, otherwise testosterone rises, and along with it oestrogen. One reason eating or drinking any of the above sugars can cause Acne. So each hormone affects the other, stimulating or inhibiting depending on the level of secretion. But it doesn't end there, secretion itself is dependant on the level of enzymes present and there are many involved. Progesterone affects the enzymes too. For instance balding in men is often attributed to DHT, acne is too. Testosterone is converted to DHT via 5-alpha reductase, progesterone effectively inhibits this, see here, here and here. Another example is aromatase. As men get older their oestrogen levels rise. This is because they secrete more aromatase, this of course converts more testosterone to oestrogen. Continued below.
Jul 25, 2012
 Does or Can Progesterone Metabolize Into Estrogen? Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Lily Interestingly progesterone does have a slight inhibitory action on aromatase, see here, here, here, here, here, and here. What are they not understanding, impossible to say as it's all quite clear. Very few seem to know that the hormones influence each other. Oestrogen and testosterone dominance and why it occurs, does not come into their vocabulary. It's impossible to look at any one thing, be it a hormone, neurotransmitter, an enzyme etc as an isolated, independently acting substance. The body works as a whole, not in parts. These are a few papers on steroidgenesis, see here, and here. These are a two on progesterone here and here. The rest are scattered over our site. The best pages to look at are Menstruation, Oestrogen Dominance, Anxiety, Breast Tenderness, Epilepsy, and Candida. You might also be interested in looking at steroidgenesis in the adrenal glands, as they also make progesterone, see here. Take care Wray
Jan 01, 2016
 Ray Peat
by: Anonymous

Wray, interesting response! Have you ever checked out Ray Peat's research and work?

raypeat.com click on his articles. I think you might find some interesting thoughts here.
Apr 26, 2016
 Hair gone myself and baby after Natpro
by: Nicole


Let me begin by saying I really value Wray Whyte. She has helped countless women and she does it with a pure and selfless heart. I took on board everything she had to say in these forums, she is so wise and helpful, I truly believe in her. However my experience has brought me to the brink of suicide. I increased my dosage of progesterone just as she recommends. Every time, I think 'oh I need more'. 3,4,5,600mg etc it's not enough, I need more. Since high doses of progesterone over a year I have now lost half my hair from underneath. I am bald from the middle of my skull to the neck, plus a receding hairline all around the face of two inches that makes me look like an egg. If I didn't have my toddler I would be wanting to die because I have so many other embarrassing problems for a 30 year old - severe tinnitus, severe dry thin wrinkled skin, and apkh - strange kinky course hairs - from Accutane use 7 years ago, blood that pools in my hands and feet leaving them red, skin that no longer tans and is a strange unhealthy shade of very white everywhere, intense red flushing when warm or embarrassed and the extreme pain in joints and legs. The hair loss has tipped me over the edge. I wish I were dead now, I'm so humiliated. I could probably increase the cream and wish for the best again but I know I will get more hair loss so why bother at this point, just to prove to myself. I have used up all my money so can't afford higher doses anyhow. I am selling my belongings every month just to take the amount I'm on now (600mg) I have high/sufficient vitamin D, plus I buy and take all the normal/high doses of B vitamins she recommends and other supplements like nac etc and I get tons of balanced protein. I am not anemic, thyroid okay. I am even now on the Ray Peat and Danny Roddy diet. I am too scared to come off the cream now in case the rest falls out, and too scared to increase in case more falls out as I will never leave the house again, so I'm stuck on the same amount not knowing if I am perpetually stimulating estrogen receptors (some people like Ray peat don't even believe in the receptors I don't understand?) I tried one pregnenolone capsule had bad reaction so that's a no go for me, the tinnitus increase was incredible. I have tried mint tea to block androgens, aspirin, caffeine magnesium, zinc, the list is endless. I am at a loss. I used to be on pain replied but after using serrapeotase I managed to get off it but that seemed to make hormones worse, rebound effect or something. I just want my hair back I am doubtful it will ever grow back now???? So now I've given myself one more problem I can't live with and I just can't cope anymore. I couldn't afford a wig if I wanted to. I can't die, and I can't stay indoors with a toddler who needs to be outside. I keep my stress down and try to ignore things as I know stress makes everything worse. I take lysine and sometimes theanine. But the truth is whenever I look at the back of my head in the mirror I wonder what the hell have I done to myself and when will it end. If I lose any more I think I won't be able stay calm anymore, and I will want to die. My gp's are all zero help. I refuse anti depressants. I wish I had never started progesterone therapy. I didn't have a great life before true, but now I have even less. I can't believe I gave myself alopecia on top of the many other problems I have. I'm pretty sure I won't get a response but I just wanted to put this out there anyway. I'm not against progesterone, I know it helps many women. I believe in Wray Whyte, she is a good and kind woman, she truly is and I believe what she says. But I'm clearly screwed up its only destroyed my health, looks, and life and now I am hanging on by a thread. I wish to god I could go back a year and have my hair back. I just don't know what to do for the best anymore. I'm stuck on this cream not knowing what to do and I'm pretty sure that soon I will be completely and on top of my many other embarrassing skin problems that's just a no go for me. I feel so ugly. I am so angry at myself for using this stuff. Nobody can help me. I'm not sure who I'm talking to here. Oh and to make matters worse I took the advice of using a pin head amount on my baby when she was extremely upset and couldn't sleep, maybe less than twice a month, and she has recently lost hair in the same places as me the neck and her receding temples, her curls at the back are disappearing and everyone keeps commenting. What the hell did this do to my 16 month old?? I am terrified of telling a doctor I did this in case they take her off me!!! I followed the advice of the Internet and put hormones in my baby and her hair fell out...they would surely investigate that??? I have ruined our lives. I don't know what the next step is now.
May 20, 2016
 Have you had your levels checked?
by: Anonymous

I am so sorry for all you are going through! Please go see a doctor that can test your blood or saliva and find out what your levels are of your different hormones including your thyroid. There is so much they can do for you! Everything you are going through is tough and the stress of it all is adding to the struggle. From the tests they should be able to help bring your hormone levels into balance. Good Luck! :)
May 26, 2016
 Taper off progesterone
by: Clay Fulghum

Nicole,
This is serious. Start backing off progesterone. I would love to know why you haven't already chosen to do that,
knowing all you do. You are suffering from progesterone overload. This is no good. All the best to you.
Clay
Jun 19, 2016
 progesterone "overload"
by: Anonymous

I am so very sorry to hear what you have been going through!
I know what it is like to have hair loss, believe me. I am still in the middle of that, but I am not giving up. Neither have you! It is obvious you have tried to do good things and now you feel guilty that you have done something wrong. You have not done anything wrong! I do not believe progesterone caused the hair loss. If you were experiencing hair loss before the progesterone, something else may have been the underlying issue. As Wray points out over and over again, progesterone needs to be supported by other things. You have done that, from what you say, in regard to other supplements she recommends. But what I think may be the missing link is : Thyroid! Iodine is crucial. Please read what Dr. David Brownstein says. Test you body temperature in the morning. This is a simple way of giving you an idea. Often blood tests tell people they are "normal" , when in fact they are NOT! Read Dr. Broda Barnes's description of temperature requirements as an indicator!
What is not clear in your email is what exactly the reasons were for your staring the progesterone. What were you taking prior to that? If there was anything that may have, I repeat, may have, increased estrogen, that may have meant estrogen dominance was far greater than you knew. I don't know if that was the case. Only you know what you were taking and why.
I would also suggest, if I may, that you perhaps begin to learn about the wonders of daily meditation practice. This can help you cope with the emotional stress you are going through.
Don't blame yourself, above all don't blame yourself. You are on a journey, like us all! There is still a path ahead.
Jul 22, 2016
 Stop the p
by: Anonymous

If u get hair loss from p. Stop. Lost a ton of hair from the stuff. It is NOT a good option for some women. It helps lots so people keep pushing it. It's horrible for some. When I take it my hair falls out and I have thoughts about killing myself. Caused terrible apathy. No suicidal thought or depression off it. Women, if ur having bad reaction trust urself.
Aug 23, 2016
 You are taking way too much
by: Anonymous

You should be workign with a dr or a hormone expert. Call Women's Intl Pharmacy they will give you a list of doctor's or nurse practioners in your area. I'm having symptoms too and had to taper off. But 600mg per day constantly is insane. It's probably turning into testosterone and you are losing your hair. Stop taking it. And that Wray is not a dr. Also you should go to MERIDEN VALLEY LABS, IN WASHINTON STATE. It is run by Dr. Wright. YOu can get a 24 hour urine test that will test almost all your hormones other than growth hormone. Look it up on the net. YOu can also go to LIfe Extension.com and they sell the test for $300. It's the 24hr urine test for hormones. Give you a complete panel. Then take that to a hormone expert. This nonsense of take more needs to stop. 100-200 should be it. Even that began making me heavy and causing acne.
Oct 27, 2016
 Too much p
by: Anonymous

If the progesterone is causing problems stop taking it. Go off for a few months and let your cycle reset. Have your thyroid and B vitamins checked. You're taking a very high dose, too much. Blessings and prayers.
Nov 06, 2016
 I use progesterone and get my hormones checked every 6 months. These high doses are crazy
by: Anonymous

I got here looking up something else but had to comment. These high doses of progesterone you ladies are taking without having fluid monitoring? What are you thinking? High dose progesterone can cause increase in most all you steroid hormones including testosterone and estrogen. If you cant se a dr that specializes in this get the hormone test kit from life extention. I use 60 mg transdermal a day in divided doses and that is more than most people need, i metabolize it very quickly. Really this is insane, listening to a random person on the net about dosing. At 100 mg you are not just getting progesterone increases, it is overflowing and turning into all kinds,of other chemicals and also changing your level of sex hormone binding globulin. Get your info from people that are experts on this. Read Dr John Lee, Dr Wright.
Jan 05, 2017
 Progesterone problems for Nicole
by: Anonymous

Finally someone else that has problems with progesterone. I have only heard and read about the wonderful things that this hormone does. Yet for me it made me fall apart even more. My hair which is already falling out, fell out more. This has been going on for 3 1/2 years now. I have had the same issues with DHEA. Your hair loss pattern sounds a lot like mine also. I completely understand the lack of confidence, the depression, and the thoughts of not wanting to go anywhere or do anything. I've never tried large doses of progesterone however small amounts make me crazy! Nicole I would love to speak with you.
Feb 05, 2017
 Reversal of progesterone cream results
by: Carolyn

Nicole, I went through similar experience which I reversed over not too much time by taking Oral Estrogen, not transdermal. I ordered 2 mg estrofem from an online pharmacy for $28/mo. Although at first I took twice a day, soon just needed once every morning. Sometimes you read all the science and think it should work a certain way, but for you it does not. This is what worked for me. By the way, this issue first started after I had my baby. Best wishes to you.
Apr 20, 2017
 Reaching out
by: Nicole

I am basically in the same position I'm sad to say.

I did lower to 300mg, I have been up and down the past year. I feel like sometimes it's working when I have 'happy days' where I mentally feel better, which is what has kept me on this mission.

My hairline has receded more front and back. Should I taper off it completely?

I just don't know anymore.

I can't afford any tests as all my money every month goes on cream and supplements.

I'm at the mercy of my nhs doctor who won't do very much for me.

I got my Vit. D, prog and estradiol levels done once last year, that's it.

Estradiol in 500's, progesterone was about 13 I think. I couldn't figure out the ratio myself.

For what it's worth I haven't come across ANY stories of success on here where women have grown back their receded hair (not just shredded hair over scalp) after using progesterone cream.

Do any such stories exist? Or do we just have to live with this now?

If anyone wants to talk just message, i'll be happy to talk to anyone about this.

I'm lost and desperate, and starting to feel as poor in my soul as I am in my bank account.
Apr 20, 2017
 Sometimes I wonder
by: Nicole

I have so many severe symptoms which relate to my cycle.

The one thing progesterone did for me was ease period pain, it was severe before, but I have all these other tremendous symptoms with regards to mood and mental health. (Plus heavy bleeding, endometriosis, cysts, irregular cycle etc)

I'm constantly either VERY irritable or crying or depressed or angry or hopeless or wishing I were dead or just a general inability to cope with any kind of stress, with rare moments of calm and contentment inbetween.

I often fantasise of winning the lottery and ordering a ton of Natpro and taking like 1000mg a day and becoming a success story - ah I just needed more!

I read about a similar lady doing that on here, yet she never mentioned losing so much hair. So does this mean I just cannot metabolise progesterone correctly or is there something else wrong?meaning no matter how much progesterone I use I will never be relieved of these symptoms (or grow back my hair?)

I am so desperate for some clues, any info at all that I could understand and which could shed some light.

I do badly wanted to be a success story and give Wray a huge smile (rest in peace wonderful lady) but I think I am always going to struggle in life.....and now be half bald too.

I can never tie my hair up ever again. I have the lowest self esteem.

I'm only 31 and dreading spending the rest of my life looking and feeling this way.

P.s I also think my face has changed over the past two years since I started the cream. Not just ageing but I just look different. Harder? Hollower eyes and cheeks. But still far along the jawline.

I wish there were some light at the end of the tunnel for those of us in this position but I lose a little more hope every day.

Dim is my next adventure (will be alongside calcium d glucarate) and I am now on iodine, one drop (400mcg) every few days. It makes my hair even dryer which I assume is the detox process. Not sure if that's a good idea or not but nothing to lose at this point.
Apr 20, 2017
 WRT comment by Anonymous Nov 6
by: Nicole

This is very interesting, I am wondering if this is what is happening to me, however I am unsure how to proceed - decrease gradually?

I'm sure I will still suffer the same problems on lower amounts, and I definitely will on zero progesterone.

Stay the same amount - continue to suffer, increase and keep suffering? (Cannot afford to increase anyhow so that is out), it seems futile and unless I sell a kidney I don't think i'll ever have the means to get professional help from a doctor who is knowledgable about this.

I've read so much info but I just don't know the solution and what my body needs to be well.

Just feel like I'm ruining my little one's childhood and I just want to be the best mother I can because I love her so much. But I'm useless like this.

Gosh this really is just so hard.

I just don't know how to proceed now.
Apr 24, 2017
 Response to nicole
by: Anonymous

Please work with a reliable hormone expert.

If whoever you are seeing now is not giving you any guidance then it's time to move on.
Apr 25, 2017
 Thanks anonymous
by: Nicole

Thanks anonymous.

I know this could really help me and I so wish I could.

My NHS gp's are zero help they just want me to have counselling/ take anti depressants.

I am a stay at home mom and have to sell on eBay to make enough extra money up each month for creams and all the supplements.

I could never afford private healthcare (and I'm not sure of any who are truly knowledgable in this area in the uk.) So I can only rely on myself and the kindness of strangers here online for advice.

I desperately wish I could talk to Wray and have cried reading the tribute pages again today.

I am however getting some advice from Joy again I think, as she responded to me on a separate page regarding dim and hair shedding. So if anyone is in the same boat please go there in case her next advice helps you too.

I'm not sure of anyone else with the same level of expertise other than Joy however I have found reading the experiences of others just as helpful.


May 19, 2017
 Progesterone
by: Anonymous

So it looks like my body cannot use the progesterone correctly, it is converting a lot of it to est/test which explains the hair loss.

So it's given me some good things e.g. no period pain, bit nicer skin, less joint pain, and bad things, e.g. severe hair loss and super severe angry, suicidal, tearful, psychotic, depressive, aggressive mood swings in episodic outbursts that are now becoming almost daily.

I cannot deal at all right now with the slightest bit of stress. I am like this every day now too so likely my cortisol has increased too. I think what has kept me going is hope. Before I discovered hormones or got pregnant I had zero hope, so I was actively suicidal. Pregnancy gave me a reason to hang on. Afterwards I had new hope with all this info I could heal, so I clung to the hope so I could pass through the outbursts.

Now I'm back to no hope for getting well but somehow have to find the strength to deal with these unbelievably severe emotions every day so I can be a mother. How am I going to achieve this.

I really put my faith into all the research, studies and comments because I believed in it. Progesterone DOES work, and for many women too. Progesterone does AMAZING things when it converts correctly. And it does for many. But I see that I was wrong to keep pushing now. From using several different dosages from 40mg up to 1200mg (which I stopped quickly as I went psychotic) with only hair loss and mood outbursts I see it is not working the same for me as it does most women. I'm not the only one either. I wish this were more well known. I wish somebody understood why and if there were a way to fix it.

Unfortunately this is not addressed nor even really acknowledged, which is a crying shame as clearly there are other women like me. You always think oh I must need to increase or persevere through estrogen dominance. For some of us that's just not the issue. There's another reason it's not working the same. Can it be solved? I hope somebody can find these posts and help us.

I'm feeling pretty lost and alone right now. If progesterone will not work for me how do I correct my hormones? Do I have to go through the rest of my life with depression and pain and suicidal outbursts and be bald now on top of that? That's no way to live.

I will be keeping up with my supplements and diet of course. I never heard of anyone correcting this severe an imbalance through those alone however.

If anyone has any answers, I and several others here would love to hear your thoughts.
May 19, 2017
 Adrenals
by: Nicole

Forgot to put in name above.

Also wanted to say, only info I can find so far is that if there is a problem with adrenals it doesn't convert correctly.

Thyroid could possibly be an issue but progesterone supposedly aids thyroid issues, I see little warning that you get adverse effects from progesterone if you are hypo. Quite the opposite, we are told it helps it. There's clearly something going on however. There's also a study on rats where high progesterone increased dht, whatever that means for us I don't know. That was on the Ray P forum posted by a very very intelligent guy.

There's a chance hair follicle receptors are over sensitive to even small increases which results in hair loss for some of us. I don't know how you'd fix that. Not sure if that explains all the other moods and symptoms though. Dr Lara Briden is under the impression that excess of anything will cause hair loss - including progesterone. She says the follicles stop responding and shut down when too much of any hormone is present - a hormone deficiency in a sea of hormones she says. This could actually be true for a few of us? I'm not sure what I think. I still feel that if you are converting it right then you can only benefit from progesterone?

Also be wary of anyone telling you to use huge amounts of iodine - check your thyroid antibodies first. Many hypo people have high antibodies (so Hashimoto's) even with normal lab levels you can have Hashi apparently. Even Dr Brownstein has said iodine can potentially increase problems for these people. If you do use iodine increase it slowly and use selenium of course. If I did these crazy amounts it would probably kill me. 400mcg gave me awful detox I can't even imagine 100 times that. I increased very slowly and will be staying on the right amount for me, not aiming to take more than I can handle, definitely not insane high amounts. What's good for one person is not for another...as I've found out.

Curezone has helpful info. I began it because I knew I was slightly deficient - I'd check that you are first, plus a full thyroid panel if you are able. I know cost stops a lot of us from being able to help ourselves though. Hope this small bit of info helps someone.

Progesterone is awesome. Just wish it would work right in my body and I knew all this stuff from the start 😥
Jul 12, 2017
 Some ideas
by: Anonymous

Hi Nicole and everyone,

Hair loss is most often related to excess androgens/testosterone/DHT (DHT is di-hydro-testosterone, the active form of testosterone), or by low thyroid hormones.

Stress is a very important factor: stress will make ACTH high which in turn will make the androgens/testosterone/dht high and hence can cause hair loss. You need to really listen to your bodies AND REST AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

Stress causes Cortisol to augment and that can block thyroid hormones from entering cells and hence create a hypothyroid state in reality (even with normal thyroid hormones on tests). So again rest and dealing with stress is really important.

Exercise, below the level of exhaustion is also a key, it really is the best way to fight depression and will help balance hormones naturally. If you can do one sit up or push up only for now, do that and try to increase very slowly everyday.

To help lessen your hair loss: saw palmetto (natural product, like Vogel makes a good one) lowers the transformation of testosterone to dht and helps lessening hair loss. Minoxidil 5% (the active ingredient in Rogaine) also is proven to lessen hair loss, a few lucky people will have hair regrowth on it too. The most affordable one I found is Minoxidil %5 from Kirkland at Costco.

Definitely have your thyroid tested and take your temperature first thing in the AM before you get outta bed and chart it; you can also try a 30mg of Thyroid (sold at Kripps pharmacy in Canada, but you need a precription). Being followed by a knowledgeable person about hormones is truly important, someone put a reference in an earlier post: ask these people if they could wave part of their fees for you because of your situation, you'd be surprised by the kindness of some.

Get some sun between 11 and 2 pm, to help balance your hormones naturally. (20 to 30 minutes is enough and should not give you cancer at all according to new research)

Heat also helps turning key enzymes on and balance neurotransmitters in your brain, lowers depression: if you have access to a sauna (like in a gym for example), or even just a hot bath, a hot shower it will help. Talking to your friends (or anyone really) will help also with keeping depression at bay.

A lot of people, who react badly to iodine drops do very well on Homeopathic iodine Iodum (homeopathic pellets are very cheap to buy).

I also believe you are taking too much progesterone and need to cut down slowly (cut by 10% of your actual dose per month if you experience symptoms of withdrawal when cutting down faster). Also, make sure that progesterone you take is truly bio-identical progesterone as man-made progestins (like provera) are not progesterone and definitely cause hair loss and acne.

An easy low cost test to test if you lack iodine is to put a bit of lugol or Iodoral (potassium iodide) on the skin of your wrist and see if it is absorbed (disappears) fast (the faster it does the more iodine deficient you are; please see Dr Wright's website for more precise lengths of time).

laughing and watching comedies helps with everything in life.

Hans Selye (a great researcher on stress) said that it is not as much the things that happen to us that causes the most damage but the way we take it. We have to take it the best we can, but yess it is still very very hard and I am sending you all the good vibes in the world to get through.

You will get through.
Aug 01, 2017
 Ladies not doing well on Progesterone
by: Anonymous

It may have something to do with your digestion and bowels. Progesterone needs to be converted and is dependent on enzymes neurotransmitters as already mentioned. So high enzyme diet i.e. fresh juices, plenty of salads, spicy vegetable broths and low animal protein. Animal protein is hard on the liver which is important for enzymes and hormone production.

2/ Take a bowel formula to rid of old fecal matter. Dr. Christophers complete lower bowel formula is perfect.

3/ Ease off the progesterone slowly and take some herbs to balance hormones and support the liver, e.g. vitex agnus, red clover, Milk Thistle, Angelica Sinensis and mood herbs: rhodiola rosea and siberian ginseng together, first is stimulating the second is calming but both lift the mood.

Take an herbal tea, nettle, oatstraw and horsetail to add nutrients back for hair growth. AND BREATHE SLOWLY EVERY DAY.

Hope this helps yogaherbalist

P.S. herbs should be adminstered by a herbalist especially if on medication already.
Aug 09, 2017
 I understand the desperation
by: Traci

When your hormones are out of whack. You'll try anything but adding progesterone without at least a basic idea of your hormone levels is kinda of crazy ESPECIALLY if you're not in peri-menopause or menopause. I fixed my estrogen dominance with 200 mg. DIM daily and 500 mg. to 1500 mg. calcium d-glurate daily so I would encourage people to try that first before adding progesterone. There is no known toxicity to either of these in large doses. The CDG can affect certain meds so check with pharmacist first.

Nicole,

Please stop the progesterone now and add DIM. Your hair is not going to grow back until you stop the progesterone. If I were you, I'd stop taking all supplements for now except for DIM until you have stabilized and your hair starts growing back then start adding one at a time over the course of months to see how they affect you. You may find with a well balance diet, you don't need many supplements. Good luck!
Aug 11, 2017
 Anonymous replies
by: Nicole

Anonymous of Aug 1st this is very interesting information thank you so much for sharing! I do hope the lovely Alyce reads this as this is a true example of why many of us, even those not using progesterone cream, come to these pages, because there are many sources of info which we may not have stumbled upon otherwise. It gives us all another angle at which to look at things, and we should assess our own bodies accordingly to what works for one may not work, or may not be enough for another (there may be another piece of the puzzle missing for example.) Thank you again.

To the kind person who suggested Dim, I did try this however it caused my hair to shed unfortunately. There is an interesting theory on why this may occur on my page 'dim causing hair to shed' it's quite far down the bottom for anyone who is interested in reading this. I know many of us come here to research whether we use the cream or not. This is a useful website.

Advice is wonderful but we must remember that no one person knows things for 100% sure as only we ourselves can know our bodies. So take on board the advice but please remember that you know your body best.

I am still taking iodine and it has helped the quality of my hair however large amounts also cause hair shedding so I stick to the advice of a Dr and I'm very happy with it, I hope I continue to see success. I am also taking tissue salts, the combination 12 and number 6. My kinking has lessened somewhat. I am under the care of a mental health team and I am doing so much better with their medication, the past week has been the best week I've had in forever! Anxiety and depression from 100 to 10 and I hope it continues. I have taken up many hobbies and I am able to be a mother once again. I continue to work hard on my nutrition and much of my diet consists of foods recommended by Ray Peat as well as others I find good for myself. Avoiding PUFA is essential for me. Ray Peat suggests that if a woman does not see benefits from 100mg of progesterone then it is likely the thyroid that needs fixing first. I intend to focus on my thyroid however I will always have an interest in hormones and visit here if I have any useful information to offer.

I know there are many of us who come here on their journey looking for information. It can be so confusing as there is so much out there and everyone thinks they are right. Just remember, it's about what is right for YOU.

Good wishes to all, let's be kind to one another.
Feb 27, 2018
 very worrying
by: Anonymous

As a PhD biochemist I find this post extremely worrying. Who on earth would advise anyone to take 600mg of progesterone a day? Even 100mg. Except during pregnancy the female body makes around 20mg/day when producing. Why would anyone take a higher dose than the body ever naturally produces? For estrogen you shouldn't be on more than about 0.5mg/day or perhaps less and progesterone a maximum of 20mg. Both these comments refer to creams and intradermal delivery. If you take orally the dose needs to be about 10x higher as much is lost via natural metabolism. Typically, within the medical profession, oral delivery is not considered ideal. Don't use anything other than bioidentical hormones i.e. actual bioidentical progesterone and estradiol and don't listen to unqualified individuals giving mad (dangerous) advice! Lastly whatever you chose to do, consult your GP and preferably an endocrinologist. All comments above refer to HRT use for menopause not other specific hormone related issues and specifically refer to bioidentical hormones not the more common synthetic alternatives.
Mar 20, 2018
 Progesterone
by: Anonymous

What amazing advice! Go see your GP! Why hadn’t any of us thought of that?! Maybe because they are as much help as a fricking hand up your ass. Why don’t you go ahead and get a chronic illness that can’t be easily diagnosed, go to your GP and let me know how you get on. I saw 20 doctors over the course of 5 years. Guess how much help they were?? I went bankrupt trying to find an answer from those idiotic Morons.. all they seemed to want to do was hand out anti depression scripts. I have practically cured my chronic fatigue/POTS by using Progesterone (at 200mg) and eating a plant based diet.
Mar 22, 2018
 Response to your commments
by: Anonymous

Hi I'll ignore the rudeness and just say find the right doctor. As said, preferably an endocrinologist. This person is extremely helpful but depends where you live. Likely you will need an initial private consultation then followed by NHS treatment.

BTW the message from my post was somewhat more than go and see you GP, but I am sure you actually know that
Mar 23, 2018
 Deleted link
by: Anonymous

Hi unfortunately the link in my previous post has been deleted.



Note from moderator:
Thank you for your input, unfortunately we do not post direct links to promote specific people or products, this is a freely provided information service, a website of over 8000 pages of thouroughly researched and updated information. We are not a platform for promotion but rather a resource for everyone to do their own research and come to their own conclusions based on the extensive research provided, as well as the thousands of personal testimonies that can be accessed through the forums.
Thank you for your understanding,
Warm wishes.
Mar 25, 2018
 note to the moderator
by: Anonymous

Hi
I understand if your rules do not permit links to direct people and I respect that. However in this case you have people appearing to be struggling for help and stating that GPs/doctors are useless. The link I provided was not promotion. Other than having been treated by the person, I have absolutely no personal interest whatsoever. It is a shame therefore that it is not possible to provide people with contact for an endocrinologist who can offer help especially as he will generally treat on the NHS. Women need specialist medical help/advise regarding hormone replacement. Allowing people to make up their own minds from research much of which is not accessible to the lay person, seems a little unfortunate when you are able to provide more.
Best regards


Note from moderator..

Hello

Thank you for your response. I agree there are many great and well informed doctors out there who are invaluable to helping us with our well being. It is a pity that the experience of many people has left a tainted view of doctors in general. If you can provide just the name of the Endocrinologist I could publish that, though no email addresses, then whomever would like to follow up and contact this doctor could do their own search with the name as reference.
Warm regards
Mar 26, 2018
 Endocrinologist contact
by: Anonymous

Hi All

I have been informed that it is OK to just provide the name of the Consultant who is able to help with hormone replacement issues, without specific contact details. Hence for those that are local to the area

Dr Masud Haq, Consultant in Diabetes & Endocrinology. Maidstone & Tunbridge Wells area. I travel over an hour to see him every 6 months

You may need to pay for an initial private consultation. All his contact details can be found on the internet
Aug 19, 2024
 2,000 mg/day Progesterone
by: Steph

Yes, my title is correct. I'm afraid I am dying. For 5/6 months I was taking 2,000 mg of progesterone per day. These amounts are being suggested and even recommended in the Facebook Estrogen Dominance group run by Kitty Martone who is the owner of Ona's brand progesterone cream. They talk extensively about how estrogen "kicks back" against progesterone and that you just have to take more progesterone until the symptoms subside. They provide many resources and are extremely convincing!

The work of renowned doctor Katarina Dalton is cited with her use of 2,500 to cure PMS and post partum depression (and her multiple books). There is Carol Peterson PharmD who writes extensively on her website, "Wellness by Design Project" that it is impossible to take too much progesterone. So, I did not decide to take this much progesterone lightly. I reviewed the tons of info these sources provided and decided to try progesterone because I had been on estradiol for 12 straight years prescribed by my former doctor due to an early hysterectomy and was very, very sick and had gained 100 lbs in the preceeding 9 months before decided to stop the estradiol. Little did I know what was left of my quality of life would be destroyed.

After 6 months of 2,000 mg of progesterone, I have constant pain in my organs, my skin is shriveled and riddles with sores, my hair is falling out (but it's the least of my problems). I have stroke level blood pressure, cannot sleep more than an hour or two, uncontrollable anxiety, I keep getting fatter, my boobs keep growing, my vagina has atrophied, I pee more than 20 times a day, I'm in and out of ER for chronic dehydration and hypertensive crisis, my eyes are so dry the eyelids stick closed, my throat has narrowed so I have trouble swallowing. My tendons are contracting so my limbs are in constant pain, I cannot walk without extreme pain.

My body is eating itself from the inside out. No doctors have been of any help, and the endocrinologists "don't treat sex hormones." (Their words.)

Up until finding the old Wiley Watch files at a site called "Rythmic Living" I didn't even know what might be wrong. I completely believed all the information I read that it is impossible to take too much progesterone. Every doctor I've seen who was told I was taking 500-2,000 mg of progesterone never questioned it. My holistic doctor wrote me the prescriptions based on all the information I showed her from Katarina Dalton and Carol Peterson and multiple files from the Facebook group. Now I am just waiting for my organs to stop working and to die so I can stop my horrific suffering.
Aug 20, 2024
 2 000mg/day Progesterone
by: Joy

Hi Steph

Oh where to begin?  Firstly, I am so sorry that you are having to deal with all this, it makes me sad and annoyed.  Annoyed because clearly you are not psychotic where the late Dr Kittie Dalton would prescribe 2 500mg progesterone to her patients.  You do not have TBI either where about 1 400mg is administered to those suffering from Traumatic Brain Injury.  You were suffering from Estrogen Dominance (ED) due the HRT that you were taking for so many years, not to mention the over 100 estrogen mimics in our Environment! The correct way to come off HRT would be to follow this advice, see here at the same time as using the correct amount of progesterone. 

Advice given on this website is based on Natpro which is a 3% cream, formulated over 30 years.  Usually between 100-200mg per day is recommended more if symptoms are severe. It's clear that you battled with severe ED in which case if the 200mg did not help, then increase to a level that suits you.  Using 2 000mg per day is a little extreme and to my mind, most unnecessary. If you were or still are using a 10 or 20% cream - well you do the math. 

While progesterone is a life saver, it can't cure all without help.  For example, Anxiety requires calming nutrients mentioned on the page.  Vitamin D3 is vital especially for anxiety.  It is related to every single functioning cell in our bodies.  Cofactors are needed, namely magnesium, vitamin K2 and zinc being the main ones.  Yon don't state what nutrients, if any, you are taking. Diet is also important.
  
Your frequent urination is due to the amount of progesterone used.  Progesterone is an effective diuretic so that explains the need to urinate often.  You are also dealing with Stress which is most understandable.  If the stress is greater than the adaptive resources then exhaustion occurs. Additional stress may kill. Organ changes in this stage are enlarged stress control glands (the adrenals) and atrophied immune system glands (the lymph and thymus). The diseases/symptoms which occur resemble those of essential fatty acid deficiency and also modern degenerative diseases. I also suspect that you are battling with Adrenal Fatigue.

After saying all of this, I do agree that high amounts of progesterone are needed when necessary but the concentration of the progesterone used must be taken into account.  Again, I feel that 2 000mg is a little extreme and I certainly would not suggest using more!

Have you tried to wean off progesterone?

Love and light to you.
Aug 30, 2024
 2,000 mg/day Progesterone
by: Steph

Thank you so much for responding to me. I'm very grateful. Oh yes! I stopped the progesterone back in February. I was trained as a Root Cause Protocol Consultant (RCPC) and have for years seated a nutrient dense diet,being ver mindful of magnesium (it's a core tenant of the protocol). During my progesterone use, magnesium became intolerable to me. It immediately caused worse dehydration and severe anxiety; so I had to back off to nearly nothing. I have been taking 15 mg of zinc piccolinate for about a years, as my zinc levels were at the very bottom of lab range. My serum copper levels are the opposite and I have developed hemosiderin staining on my legs over the past 3 months. I have tried everything to retain water in my cells. IV hydration just sends my BP up. There seems to be some kind of potassium wasting and I have found vitamin D enhances progesterone, and I feel much worse if I'm in the sun. I've even tried using half of a 0.025 Estradiol patch. That just made me retain water in tissues but not in blood, mouth, eyes, or skin. On the Wiley Protocol site (Rhythmic Living) they talk about having to counter all the "high dose" progesterone (200 mg) with even higher dose estrogen (8 mg!) to "protect the organs" but they don't go into specifics about what they're protecting them from. And TBH, the Wiley Protocol of 200 mg/day of progesterone doesn't seem radical at all, but the 8 mg/day of estradiol sounds insane. They were going even higher in some cases. I know estrogen sticks around in tissues and isn't easy to detox from. Yet, the whole Wiley website is devoted to what they call "progesterone toxicity"... but I surely don't understand why they thought 200 mg of progesterone was toxic, but not the 8 mg of estradiol. The thing is though all the symptoms they list, especially the dehydration fit my own. It's been the only place I have found any mention of too much progesterone or a comprehensive list of what I'm experiencing. What's the scariest is that the "Dr Formby" who was the Co author or Wiley's book, claims that progesterone has a 127 day half life! I thought vitamin D supplements were bad at 30 days, but 127??! Kitty Martone's and Katharina Dalton all say half life of progesterone is measured in minutes, which is why frequent dosing is recommended. Who is correct?? 127 days seems a little unbelievable to me since I have experienced pregnancy, and the progesterone didn't last for years. That being said if it had a very short half life, I'd think it would be gone from my body by now. At this point, I'm at a loss as to what to do. No doctors can or will help me. I feel like I just am waiting to die. Is there anything that can help me? Is there any hope that the progesterone will eventually clear my system? Is what I'm experiencing even excess progesterone or is it just a resurgence of my estrogen after stopping the progesterone in February? Serum labs seem to be worthless for measuring hormones in tissue.
Aug 30, 2024
 2,000 mg/day Progesterone PS
by: Steph

PS - I did review the information you linked in your response to me. Here's a little more about my situation: When I stopped the estradiol 2 years ago, I just went cold turkey. All of my doctors said I could just stop. We'll, 72 hours after taking off my patch, I ended up in hospital with a hypertensive crisis. Those same doctors just gaslit me after that saying my hypertensive crisis couldn't be related. But now that 2 years has past since being on any estradiol, I can't imagine I could go back and have a do-over.

As for vitamin D, I was actually overdosed with vitamin D3 supplements by a previous doctor 8 years ago. I adamantly disagree about taking vitamin D supplements. D3 is a hormone and not a vitamin. D3 is only one component of the hormone D structure that is comprised of 19 metabolites, 18 of which can only be made on the skin in response to sunlight. My kidneys nearly failed after 2 years of D supplements prescribed by a former doctor back in 2014. I consulted with a biochemical engineer to learn about what hormone D does in the body. It's important to know that D3 is an acute phase reactant, meaning it doesn't cause anything in the body, it merely reacts. If 25(oh)D is low in serum, it often means 1,25(oh)D is high! This is the active form of D. But doctors rarely check this. So think of serum 25(oh)D being a symptom of an underlying problem, but D levels are NEVER the CAUSE, and therefore, changing serum D levels doesn't cure anything, but being a powerful steroid hormone, it CAN affect or alleviate symptoms, which can actually be detrimental to discovering and addressing the underlying problem. D supplements also cause severe potassium wasting, which is s how they damage the kidneys.

Right now, after being on Progesterone, I cannot tolerate any sunlight. It exacerbates all my symptoms. In my research, I found that hormone D actually enhances progesterone production and it's affects. This may also explain how I may be experiencing potassium wasting from taking progesterone.

I also have to say the use of tryptophan would not be helpful in the case of high estrogen because in cases of high estrogen, Serotonin is almost always also very high. Ironically, one of the only accurate, indirect ways to measure tissue estrogen levels is through a serotonin serum test. High estrogen causes extremely high serotonin levels, like to nearly levels of serotonin syndrome. There is some research that indicates that this high level of serotonin caused by high estrogen is what creates severe PMS and post-partum psychosis. It also seems to play a role in the severe insomnia high estrogen causes. Serotonin isn't the feel good hormone at all. In my case, I actually have had my serotonin measured a few times. When I was on estrogen, my serotonin was super high. A few months after stopping the estradiol, my serotonin went even higher! Doctors were shocked this could happen without ever taking an SSRI drug. Also, just because a person has high serotonin doesn't mean they will have high or even sufficient melatonin. With sky high serotonin I literally never slept. It wasn't until I was taking over 1,000 mg of progesterone that serotonin started to come down. This was one of the events that made me believe progesterone was the answer to my problems from 12 years of estradiol therapy. In any event, it has taken 2 years for my serotonin to be in proper range. For a long time even eating foods high in tryptophan would send me into anxiety attacks. Unfortunately for me lower serotonin levels also doesn't equate to better melatonin levels as I still am unable to sleep well. At any rate high levels of serotonin go hand in hand with high tissue estrogen. If you are interested in finding out more about this Dr. Ray Peat did extensive research in this area. His nutritional information is invaluable.
Sep 01, 2024
 2,000mg/day Progesterone
by: Joy

Hi Steph

Well I am really sorry that progesterone didn't work for you.  This happens often when progesterone is not used correctly as mentioned previously.

You appear to be sensitive to a few things which I find rather odd.  Magnesium.  What type did you try?  Did you try other methods like magnesium oil and Epsom Salts baths?  One needs to drink a lot of water with magnesium in order to get it to the cells where needed.  Water should not be 'gulped' down either.  It should be sipped, again this helps magnesium get to the cells.  Otherwise we just urinate it out so quickly.  Whether taking magnesium or nor, water should be sipped which will help dehydration. Also odd is that you react to the sun regarding vitamin D3.  Progesterone of course, when used correctly, will help but without the cofactors it will just take longer to achieve your goal. There are lots of wonderful Facebook Groups on Magnesium but I have covered this in the link given previously.  Vitamin D3 'bad at 30 days', sorry but I have not heard of such a thing. When you say that you overdosed on D3, what was your level?  Again toxicity is covered on the link given to you.  Please visit the Vitamin D Council and GrassrootsHealth for the correct information on this.

There are so many Progesterone Misconceptions when it comes to progesterone, please be mindful of this.  Progesterone does not store in tissues or cells. You will always have progesterone in your body as they body makes it all the time, it just makes less as we age. When supplementing with progesterone it should be used no less than twice a day.  Levels drop after 12 hours and keeping levels stable is important.

I wish you well and my you find the help that you need.
Sep 03, 2024
 2,000 mg/day Progesterone
by: Steph

Again, thank you for your response, Joy. I am actually trained as a Root Cause Protocol Consultant. The basic tenants of the protocol are to achieve optimal magnesium levels and to get the iron recycling system working (in most people iron recycling RES is very poor). I consider myself an expert with magnesium. Contrary to it being "odd" or "strange" adverse reactions to magnesium are extremely common, especially among people who have hormonal imbalances, have low potassium, or have poor circulation of iron. The most common adverse reaction is loose stool, followed very closely by anxiety. Trust me when I say I know every trick in the book to get magnesium into cells (which is where it belongs) and I am very familiar with all of the co-factors. In my research I found that both magnesium and hormone D enhance and facilitate progesterone. Ever since I took high doses of progesterone for 6 months, I have been intolerant to both magnesium and sunlight (I assume due to my body not wanting any more vitamin D). My 25(OH)D {storage form} is currently at normal levels, but my 1,25(OH)D {active form} is 75 and that is considered much too high. The elevation of my 1,25(OH)D is something that happened recently only after taking the high doses of progesterone. I have not taken a vitamin D supplement in more than 8 years, which was ever since discovering my vitamin D toxicity from the prescription I had been on from my former doctor, which was 10,000 IU/day. My 25(OH)D {storage form} reached over 120 at one point, but the doctor never told me and I just kept taking the prescription, which is why I went into kidney failure! I am the administrator of a Facebook group regarding the science behind Hormone D (Secosteroid Hormone D) which has over 25,000 members. I can tell you for certain there are many, many people who have experienced kidney failure from D3 supplementation. I am more interested learning more about progesterone. Specifically, in finding studies which show that progesterone cannot build in tissues, verified data about its half-life (as I said Dr. Formbey from the Wiley Protocol insists it is 127 days, but provided no source references for that). Vitamin D supplements have a half-life of 28 days. It took nearly 4 years for my 25(OH)D level to return to normal laboratory levels. During that time, I facilitated the excretion of the D supplements as well as took measures to try to protect my kidneys. If I can find hard data on the half-life of progesterone and how the body metabolizes it, I can try to find ways to protect myself by facilitating the process. Unfortunately, I have only found varying assertions and opinions, and those assertions conflict. So far, the only hard data I have on progesterone is from my own lab result proofs (and those of others I have observed): It will pull estrogen from tissues and increase serum estradiol (prior to progesterone my estradiol levels were immeasurable in serum, but my serotonin and prolactin were high, indicating very high tissue estrogen), it will raise 1,25(OH)D {active} vitamin D.

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