In need of help

by kim
(australia)

I am 39yrs old. I had my second child 22mths ago. I breast fed so i did not get my first period till 5mths ago. 2 weeks after my period i suddenly became extremely stressed and then deeply depressed. I could find no reason for it. I suddenly had extreme hypoglycaemia, depression, anxiety, phobias and no one could work out what was wrong with me. I was still breast feeding my son all this time. I lost a huge amount of weight also. 2 months after it started i had to start antidepressants as i was crippled by this situation. Still no one could figure out what was wrong. At this time i was forced to stop feeding my son as i didn't want the antidepressants to affect him. The antidepressants only helped 50%. I continued to cry each day feeling hopeless. My period did not return again after the first one (5mths ago) for 4 more months (last month).
I am still crying each day and was told casually in passing conversation that my progesterone levels seemed a bit low but he did not say to do anything about it????? Im so confused. My period is supposed to be due tomorrow (if it comes again) and the depression has increased the last few days.

Can you tell me if this could all be caused by low progesterone and what should i do about it?

I also remember being told that my cortisone levels were elevated.

But no one has put anything together. I have just been doing the hypoglycaemia diet/taking vitamins and antidepressants.

Would love your opinion please.

Thank you
Kim Tini
Sydney Australia

Comments for In need of help

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Mar 04, 2012
In need of help
by: Wray

Hi Kim With the start of your periods, your oestrogen and testosterone level had begun increasing. But it's evident from your symptoms that you don't appear to be ovulating. If this doesn't occur, no progesterone is secreted, this is vital to counter the effects of oestrogen. Unfortunately so little is still known about progesterone, beyond it's role as the 'pregnancy' hormone. To my mind this is the least important role it plays, we're not always pregnant! It's neuroprotective, it's a potent anxiolytic, together with it's metabolite allopregnanlone. It's also an important anti-inflammatory and antioxidant. We do have a page on Anxiety you could look at. If your depression has been increasing these past few days, it's all the more evidence you're not ovulating yet. Progesterone peaks ±7 days before bleeding, then drops during the few days before, remaining low until ovulation. But oestrogen also peaks mid-luteal phase, and if insufficient progesterone is secreted, all hell can break loose. Please see this Graph we have on the rise and fall of the hormones. Lack of progesterone can be caused by anovulation, or a defective luteal phase, which is when the corpus luteum fails to produce sufficient, see here. Anovulation can be caused by a number of factors, high oestrogen, testosterone, LH, FSH and prolactin. Yours is probably due to high prolactin, the hormone which causes milk production. Maybe you could have this checked, they could do the other hormones too. Or do you have the results, as your doctor mentioned low progesterone. This is definitely what you have, but why your doctor didn't recommend using it is beyond me. The stress you're going through is the obvious reason your cortisol is high. Your sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) could be too low. This allows both testosterone and oestrogen to rise, resulting in severe symptoms, see here. You'll notice that very high levels of oral progesterone were used, but the oral route is not the best Delivery system, as most is destroyed by the gut and liver. Low levels of allopregnanolone are also present just prior to bleeding, see here. As this is a progesterone metabolite, if progesterone is low, no allopregnanolone will be made at any point in the cycle. Although you are no longer pregnant, you might like to see this page we have here. Continued below.

Mar 04, 2012
In need of help Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kim Dr Dalton mentions post natal depression, which normally occurs either at birth, or a few days after. Although your problems started about 17 months later, it's still the same cause, very low progesterone. And you need high amounts to increase it, and overcome the symptoms you have. I would suggest 400mg/day, you might need more, but only trying it will tell. You should be able to come off the anti-depressants too. Please see our page on Natural Antidepressants, scroll to the bottom of the page for info. I know how you feel about the endless daily crying, as I had that too, but while going through Peri-menopause, progesterone stopped it thank heavens! You live in Australia, which has a daft policy of covering up when in the sun. Nothing could be more dangerous to our health as no vitamin D will be made. This is such a vital nutrient, a lack leads to depression and a reduced benefit from progesterone, amongst an untold number of things. Please have a test done. For more info on vitamin D levels, testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray

Mar 04, 2012
Thank you
by: Kim

Thank you so much. I can not believe how much effort and time you put into your reply. I feel you have answered my prayers. One thing i also forgot to mention was that ever since my son was born , every time i put him on the breast to feed, he would start to suck and a depression would sweep over me. It would lift as soon as he stopped sucking. This went on for such a long time that i don't know when it stopped. maybe it never did?

I am going to get the progesterone cream. How exactly should i take it if i am not getting a period tho?

Mar 04, 2012
Results
by: Kim

I just came back from the doctor and received some hormone results. He suggested i need to take the progesterone pill. But its not natural. What do you suggest instead?
Do you know what these results mean?

I had the blood taken on day 15 of my cycle.

FSH 8
LH 4.7
OEST2 177
PROG 1

He said that my OEST should be above 210
He said my progesterone should be above 4

Do you still suggest as previously that this is the cause of all my depression/anxiety etc?

I feel like i have been given hope again if this is the case.

Thank you so much for your time on this.
Kim



Mar 05, 2012
Results
by: Wray

Hi Kim Thanks for the kind words, it's important for me that the query is answered fully. Then the person can make an informed decision. This is pure speculation on my part because I can find no direct study to support my argument. But oxytocin is the hormone which causes the 'let down' of milk, it inhibits progesterone, the converse is also true. Progesterone does drop dramatically after birth, as the placenta, the main source of progesterone when pregnant, no longer exists. But we do still make some, in the adrenals and brain. So my feeling is each time you feed, and oxytocin rises allowing the milk to flow, it suppresses what little progesterone you had. These are some papers on the two hormones, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. I'm a bit puzzled as you say you don't have a period, so how do you know the test was done on day 15 of your cycle? Your FSH is within normal range 3.5-30.0 IU/L. It's impossible to tell with the LH, as it varies across the cycle. See… Follicular phase: 1.68-15 IU/L, Midcycle peak: 21.9-56.6 IU/L Luteal phase: 0.61-16.3 IU/L. Your oestrogen is in normal range 30 - 400 pg/ml, but your progesterone is low, in the follicular phase it's normally <1 ng/ml, whereas in the luteal phase it's between 5 to 20 ng/ml. There's more info on our Hormone Testing page. But as you don't have a cycle, it's not possible to go by the levels. But what does show up is the ratio, this is always the critical factor, not the levels. Your ratio of progesterone to oestrogen is 5.6:1, we've found from Saliva Tests we run, that the ratio should be 600:1 and over to feel well. So there's your answer! Continued below.

Mar 05, 2012
Results Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kim I would have to know the name or ingredient in the pill to tell if it's synthetic or natural. Progesterone does come in oral form, there's more info on the delivery systems page I gave you. But it's ineffective, as most is destroyed by the gut and liver. If it's natural it's probably 100mg, whereas I believe you need 400mg/day, and in a form which is absorbed well. Injections (by all accounts painful), suppositories or creams are the best system. As you have no cycle, if I've understood correctly, you should use it daily. It won't stop your own cycle re-appearing when it's due. If you start on a high amount, ie the 400mg/day I suggest, I would hope your symptoms will gradually go. Once gone you can begin reducing the amount you use very slowly. I recommend a reduction of about 16mg, staying on this reduced amount until stable before reducing again. We do have more info on our page How to use progesterone cream. Finally please have that vitamin D test done. Take care Wray

Mar 05, 2012
More info
by: Kim

Wry, you are amazing. I wish i could give you a big hug!!!!
By day 15 i was going off the fact that i had a period last month but it may not be accurate as you mentioned because going from that date i was due my period 3 days ago and it has not come. The only thing that has come is the anxiety and depression started again 4 days ago and is hitting hard.
I was given some options by 3 different doctors and they do not agree with each other. I want to do whatever will be most effective and least side effects. These are the options:

progesterone 4% in macadamia cream 60g

progesterone cream 10% w/w 50g

Noriday 28 day tablet 350mcg (mini pill i believe)

lozenges 75mg progesterone and .05mg Oestrogen

In your own opinion what would you suggest. Are any of these good options? If so what one, dosage, days etc?

Because it seems my period is going bananas still do i just take it every single day even through bleed if it arrives?

I went and had a look at some tests i had a couple of months ago and my vitamin D said 67 nmol/L. Is that ok?

Why would my anxiety etc increase when my period is due if its not going to come? I believe you are correct that its post natal depression that has hit me.

Are there any side effects from using to much progesterone? I read it can increase depression. Is this even true?
Thanks Wray.


Mar 06, 2012
More info
by: Wray

Hi Kim Bless you! Remember I said I thought the first half of your cycle is working, but that you're not ovulating. Well with oestrogen rising in the luteal phase it doesn't surprise me the anxiety gets worse. The first two options are ok, don't touch the second two. Noriday contains norethisterone, a synthetic progestin, and you don't need more oestrogen! Check the cost of the two, unless you're getting them on medical aid. If you go for the 4% you will need 10ml of cream per day to get 400mg of progesterone. The container will last you 6 days, so you will need 5 containers a month. If you go for the 10% cream, you will need 4ml per day, and the container will last you 12.5 days. So you will need about 2.4 containers a month. I'll be very interested to see your doctors face when you ask for that much! But I am recommending half the amount Dr Dalton suggests. The idea behind using it every day ensures progesterone suppresses any excess oestrogen, and becomes dominant. I can't tell how long it will take, that's trial and error, but it should work at that amount. You might have to use it for the full 2-3 months I suggested. You can always take those nutrients on the anxiety page I gave you. There are so many Progesterone Misconceptions. One thing it can't cause is depression, did you get a chance to read that page I gave you by Dr Dalton? Not mentioned on it, but in her books she talks of using amounts of 2400mg/day for post natal psychosis. Your vitamin D is too low, as I said above, blood levels should be 175-250nmol/L and not the 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Please increase it to 250nmol/L, I know this will only benefit you. Studies conducted on Traumatic Brain Injury victims found that adding vitamin D to the progesterone protocol, enhanced the benefits of progesterone. Take care Wray

Mar 06, 2012
PND
by: Annette Canada

Hi Kim pnd is awful and I was a very severe case not to mention I was on bcp for 15 years. Awful stuff. I wouldn't worry about your cycle and focus on making progesterone the dominant hormone. I love the Natpro cream and i highly recommend it. Just take the cream straight through without a break until your body settles down. I would use minimum 400 milligrams but in your case higher the better after my experience. Wray's friend Joy has a great calming complex that has helped me a great deal. Hears to health and happiness!! xo

Mar 06, 2012
PND
by: Wray

Hi Annette You are always so encouraging, bless you! And thank you for reminding me about the calming complex, in case Kim is interested, please contact Joy through her website here. Take care Wray

Mar 06, 2012
Thank you
by: Kim

Thank you so much to both you Wray and Annette. I am going to order the napro cream today. It seems that it would be a better cost effective option for me. I am also going to start taking vitamin D. I have hope again that i will get through this depression and anxiety.
Just so i am totally clear (my brain seems quite foggy lately and memory shocking!). How much of the Napro cream should i use per day? Can i split it half in the morning and half at night?

Also my sister called me today very sad. She has been trying to get pregnant for over a year. She is 30. I suggested she look into progesterone. Would she benefit from this also? I thought i would check before i order mine so i can get her some also. Can it help her get pregnant?

Thanks so much again. You really have been an answer to my prayers!

Mar 07, 2012
Thank you
by: Wray

Hi Kim I know what it's like, as I also had PND. You need to use 400mg/day, I don't think anything less is going to help. It's quite a lot of cream, so you will have to use it all over. You might like to read this page we have on Progesterone Misconceptions. You might have heard all the rumours about how to use it on the web, I wrote this to counter them. It's always best to use it a minimum of twice a day, but for bad symptoms some women apply it hourly. Just divide the daily amount into as many applications as you need. And don't forget the natural anti-depressants on the anxiety page I gave you. And yes progesterone is vital for Pregnancy. Please ask your sister to read this page. But above all have a vitamin D test done, you too please. It's so important to know the level before starting it, as the dose can be adjusted accordingly. If it's very low 10,000 or 20,000iu's per day are needed. Without vitamin D ovulation doesn't occur, this could be her only problem. It's vital for all stages of pregnancy, in particular for the growing foetus, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. These are excellent videos to watch too, see here and here. Continued below.

Mar 07, 2012
Thank you Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Kim She should consider taking taurine too, also vital for the growing foetus, see here, here and here. Does your sister know why she's not falling pregnant, ie does she have PCOS, is it lack of ovulation, or stress, have her hormones been checked? If your sister wants to use the progesterone, there is a 20 tube option on the site, it gives a 30% discount. But please check with your customs first, as they can be sticky about large amounts. Thanks for the kind words! Annette is so supportive, she's been through a very tough time too. Take care Wray





Mar 09, 2012
My sister
by: Kim

Thank you so much again!!!!!! I spoke to my sister Sarah and this is what she e-mailed me.

"I have severe endometriosis which i have had an operation for which they removed 2 very large cysts and a large piece of skin that was blocking one side of where the egg needs to implant. I'm ovulating fine they said, I have plenty of eggs and my periods are pretty good timing wise, they come when they should most the time.
My mood can drop all of a sudden and anxiety well that comes on like a lightning bolt, takes me a little while to calm myself but I can
normally do it over time after training myself over the years. I Can get very teary so easily. I don't enjoy crying at a drop of a hat and crying for no reason.
I can get stressed so easily and so so quickly i dont handle stress at all. The slightest thing im straight away feeling anxious and stressed out of my mind so as you can imagin with the baby trying I'm feeling out of control which im sure plays a part in me not falling pregnant. Id love to be able to feel normal."

Do you think she could benefit from the crew,m also? I ordered mine yesterday (3 tubes).
Thanks Kim

Mar 11, 2012
My sister
by: Wray

Hi Kim We do have a page on Endometriosis, can you ask her to read through it. It's caused by oxidative stress, she needs to have a vitamin D test done. Please give her those details I gave you. I have found if endo is severe, 500mg/day progesterone or more is needed. Once things have calmed down the amount should be reduced very slowly. She needs to take large doses of antioxidants, there's a list of these on this page here. It's not a quick fix, but the endo must be reversed before implantation is successful. Progesterone does help, but it's essential to get vitamin D levels up and to counter the oxidative stress with the other antioxidants. Take care Wray

Mar 17, 2012
Depressed again
by: Kim

Hi Wray, i ordered my cream and am waiting on its arrival. In the mean time i am using the 10% one my doctor gave me. I am not sure what happened but i felt wonderful for 8 days and then yesterday i got a sort of period. It only seemed to last 24hrs and it had been 6 weeks since the last one. Yesterday and today i have been crying and depressed again. I don't know what happened. Im so confused. Am i not using enough? I used 3ml morning and night.
Can you offer any help?

Mar 18, 2012
Quick question
by: Kim

Sorry - me again. When my Natpro arrives i want to be totally clear on my amounts. You recommend using 400mg per day and continuing straight through till my symptoms go away. How much of the Natpro cream do i use per day to get the 400mg?
Thank you for being so willing to help xo

Mar 20, 2012
Depressed again
by: Wray

Hi Kim I'm so pleased you had the 8 wonderful days, as it does prove you need progesterone. The 'sort' of period is the clue to why you were crying and depressed again. Oestrogen rises during the luteal phase, if there's not enough progesterone to counter it, severe symptoms can occur. You would have to use more a few days prior to bleeding, difficult when it comes out of the blue! If you're using 6ml per day, and it's a 10% cream you are getting 600mg/day progesterone. As this has been working I feel you should continue with this amount. Dropping to 400mg/day is not a good idea at this stage. I would suggest you continue for at least a month before you consider reducing it. This would mean using 18ml/day of the Natpro. I also suggest using it hourly too, this keeps levels up. If at any time you feel depression coming, put on more cream. 400mg/day of Natpro is 12ml of cream. We do have a chart showing the various measurements right at the bottom of our page How to use progesterone cream. When you feel ready to reduce the amount, please do so by no more than 16mg or 1/2ml. Stay on this amount for a few days before reducing again. Please look at the natural antidepressants on our Anxiety page, I feel sure some would help you. I suggest trying the inositol and B3 first, before the others. And how much vitamin D are you taking? I do hope enough, it should be 20,000iu's for a month, followed by 10,000iu's for 2 months, then have another test. It's so important to get your level up high quickly, yours was far too low. Take care Wray

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