Anxious and Confused

by Wendy
(Michigan)

Dear Wray,

I have been reading your site for about 2 months now. I think I am double posting my message - my apologies! I am so impressed with your knowledge and kind helpful spirit. I am hoping you can guide me. I am 40 years old and 18 months postpartum. 4 months ago I had a major anxiety attack with panic and have been battling it ever since. I contacted my chiropractor who immediately diagnosed estrogen dominance. No surprise. My anxiety symptoms started when I weaned my daughter back in September at 13 months old. I am under enormous stresses that aren’t going away anytime soon. My Chiro tried some natural remedies for anxiety to no avail so I resorted to psychotherapy and valium of which I have been taking in low doses on and off since. I am now 8 days off of it and believe I am experiencing withdrawal. My phyche doc who prescribed the valium helped me taper, but does not believe I was on enough of it to have withdrawal. Also, through my Chiro doc I have been working to restore my hormone balance with an ovary glandular and Chaste Tree. My cycle is good, but my anxiety is still strong, especially now that I’m off the benzo. I am currently doing a saliva hormone test so we can fine tune my protocol, but I’m not sure I can make it through the next half of my cycle without going on an anti-depressant or on progesterone therapy, the former which I have been desperately trying to avoid, and the latter which will skew my test results. Everything I have read from you makes so much sense, except I am afraid that by using progesterone cream, I will be down-regulating my natural progesterone production. One of my biggest questions is if I follow your guideline of using Natpro, to restore my sanity, how do I get my natural hormone production back on-line? Secondly, with natural anti-depressants, why is it that you advise not to use tryptophyn or GABA when going off valium? Before I read that, I was I am trying 5-htp and GABA, along with taurine for my racing heart symptoms and l-theanine which has offered some relief from anxiety and panic. I have three doctors attempting to help me and they are all at odds. Self-diagnosing and self-medicating is lonely and scarey and often not very accurate. Thanks you for any help or guidance you can offer!

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Feb 27, 2012
Feel your pain
by: Annette Canada

Dear Wendy I know all to well your dilemma... I'm 39 and my last baby I had was 3 months pre term and that sent me into a severe PND... I have been on Natpro for about 1 year and had to take some very high doses to kick the anxiety and many other symptoms. Anxiety is the worse thing ever.. I also went on a calming complex you can get from Wray's friend Joy. Wray can give you her e-mail. I wouldn't take anything less than 800 milligrams a day to help bring your levels up quickly. If you take too low it will make it worse, trust me!!
Make sure you are taking 10000 iu's of d day. Anti-depressants will only treat symptoms not the cause, horrible stuff. Progesterone is your answer!!! All the best. Don't worry about the high doses I've taken up to 1500 milligrams a day when I felt really bad!! All the best and yes I have no more anxiety!!!

Feb 27, 2012
suggeted tests
by: Rosanne

Hi

Just wanted to make a quick comment to maybe help you out. The anxiety you speak of can have many causes. ie cortisol levels, estrogen dominance and hypothyroidism(check tsh, free t3 and free t4). Once you have checked these hormones in addition to full female panel; to ensure you are correcting the right hormone, then you can direct your protocol.
If you find progesterone is deficient you might find that DIM with calcium d glucarate daly will help estrogen dominance greatly in addition to applying progesterone last half of cycle. It takes about a week on these supplements to see a difference. Your body is under a great deal of stress with the imbalance so adrenal fatigue supplements would be beneficial until you can correct the imbalances. I also fins ashwaghanda is great for balancing out stress hormones so this might take the edge off until you correct the imbalances. Ashwaghanda should be used short term until you feel better(you would have to go off the valium though as they would most likely react)

I hope this helps
Rosanne

Feb 27, 2012
Estrosmart
by: Annette Canada

Hi again just want to add on to the suggestion of DIM and calcium d- glucarate. You can get it a mixed form and it is called Estrosmart. I see you live in the States so I don't if you can get it there yet but it's worth looking into. What a great product, I take them as well.

Feb 27, 2012
Thanks and questions
by: Wendy

Annette - I think I have read your page. You sound familiar. I so appreciate your encouragement! I am sure you can understand how lost I have felt. I should have wrote in months ago!

Rosanne - thank you for the suggestions! I have had full blood work. Shows all hormones are low, but no one has looked at the ratios. THS rose from 2.6 to 4.3 in two months after the anxiety set in. My integrated physician wanted to put me on Armour but I have heard it doesn't work as well these days and I will end up on Synthroid. I have looked into adrenals because they have been fatigued in the past, but the protocol I was on had side effects of vertigo which is as bad as anxiety and panic. I am sure all of my systems could stand to be balanced, but no one has given me a good place to start. I am working on the saliva test for hormones and cortisol. I have heard that topical hormones can skew the test results, so I am trying to hold out on using cream.

As for the DIM and calcium d glucarate, I will look into those. I own Ashwaganda but do not know when to take it. When do you suggest? I've tried so many other things that I'm gotten myself very confused. I am off the valium, so I shouldn't have to worry about interactions.

Again, Ladies, a heartfelt thanks!

Feb 28, 2012
Anxious and Confused
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Yes I did see the same query on another page! But I'm answering this one as both Annette and Rosanne have good advice. They're very supportive of me and women going through tough times. It strikes me you have post natal depression, in which case you need large amounts of progesterone, much as Annette says. In fact the 800mg/day she suggests is the amount Dr Dalton gave to her patients with PND. You might not need this amount, but it's impossible for me to tell. It's trail and error, although I wouldn't suggest anything less than 400mg/day. You might like to read this article by Dr Dalton here. She would go up to 2400mg/day for her patients with post natal psychosis, luckily a very rare problem! Stress also drops levels, Plus it causes a host of adverse symptoms to occur, from oxidative stress, which leads to a cascade of inflammatory cytokines, a drop in neurotransmitter levels, hypothyroidism, and not least stressed adrenals as Rosanne points out. The adrenals are the most overworked and overlooked glands in the body. They make many hormones, 10 highly active including the three stress hormones adrenaline, noradrenaline and cortisol. But before making cortisol they secrete progesterone, which is then converted in the adrenals to cortisol. But if stressed they tend to rob other sources of progesterone, notably the ovaries, which upsets the reproductive system. In fact stress can stop ovulation, which of course means no progesterone is made. I don't think you should put too much store in the saliva tests now, the main thing is to get you well, and not by taking antidepressants! If a woman has severe problems I recommend using the progesterone daily for 2-3 months to suppress any excess oestrogen, and to ensure progesterone becomes dominant. This will suppress ovarian function, including ovulation. But once following the cycle and using it from ovulation it doesn't. The corpus luteum is now formed and will begin secreting progesterone. In fact a remarkable thing about progesterone, it's been found that it's capable of stimulating it's own synthesis. The typical negative feedback system seen in other endocrine tissues does not operate in the corpus luteum, and at the end of the luteal phase, in spite of LH secretion, the corpus luteum regresses and progesterone secretion declines, see here. Your own progesterone production at the moment appears to be extremely low, due no doubt to the stress. Continued below.

Feb 28, 2012
Anxious and Confused Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I am maybe overly cautious about the Natural Antidepressants tryp and GABA. It's because too much and symptoms come back, which is why I advise starting with low doses. All benzo drugs are dangerous, addictive if taken for longer than 2 weeks. They work on the GABA A receptor sites, progesterone does too, and of course GABA itself. This is not addictive and should always be the first choice. But if a benzo is being taken, plus GABA, it could have a ramped up effect. I do suggest a way of reducing the drug, but always advise the nutrients should be taken too to support the body. Taurine is excellent for the heart, so too is progesterone. I don't know if you have arrhythmia and palpitations too, but if so it's because oestrogen causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia and Torsades de Pointes. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, see here, here, here, here, here and here. It seems you're more in need of tyrosine, than either tryp or GABA. Although a non-essential amino acid, tyrosine is one of the most important. It's the precursor to the neurotransmitter dopamine, and the stress hormones adrenaline and noradrenaline. It's also the precursor to the two thyroid hormones T3 (triiodothyronine) and T4 (thyroxine), plus melanin, the pigment found in hair and skin. It's part of the enkephalin peptide involved in regulating and reducing pain, and increasing pleasure. Tyrosine is essential for any stressful situation, cold, fatigue, emotional trauma, prolonged work, sleep deprivation, it improves memory, cognition and physical performance too. Stress lowers tyrosine levels, with a subsequent reduction in dopamine. Acute, uncontrollable stress depletes dopamine, leading to depression and a rise in corticosterone, tyrosine reverses this. The rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway. As Annette says, please take vitamin D, but it's best to have a test done first. Continued below.

Feb 28, 2012
Anxious and Confused Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Wendy For more info on vitamin D levels, testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Self medicating is lonely and scary, but if done with the healing nutrients, only good can come of it. Many women are now finding they have to go this route, alone too. Although there are always people like Annette and Rosanne who are so quick to respond to a call for help. It's just such a heart warming experience. Bless you for the kind words, I only hope between us we can get you on the path to health. Take care Wray

Feb 28, 2012
Thanks and questions
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I see you are very quick at responding!! I hope my explanation, plus the other advice you've received from Annette and Rosanne helps you soon. Rosanne can best advise on te ashwaganda, I have no experience of it. Beyond knowing it's an adaptogen and does help stress. Take care Wray

Feb 28, 2012
Anxious and Confused
by: Joy (South Africa)

Hi Wendy - I would just like to add to this if I may. Annette has been to hell and back with PND etc. It has taken her a long time to get to where she is today. Do try to follow her advice, it's correct and you will not have any regrets.

Take care and good luck.

Feb 28, 2012
more suggestions
by: Rosanne

Hi Wendy

I would suggest you read the book adrenal fatigue 21st century illness by dr wilson and go to his website adrenal fatigue.org. I take his supplement program for adrenal fatigue. If you do not think armour will work I have heard Americans purchasing it from our canadian company called ERFA thyroid. Our dessicated thyroid is called Thyroid. I take this and I believe it works better for me then the levothyroxine I have taken for past 19 years.My blood tests are right on everytime so there is no inaccuracies in this brand.With regards to ashwaghanda I no longer have to take it because the adrenal supplements, progesterone and DIM plus CDG has worked so well as a protocol. However I took it before bed to help sleep through the night and during the day if I felt cranky, irritable, shaky, weak. I use a DIM product from the USA that has everything you need to start moving estrogen out of your body and it is called orthomolecular CDG Estrodim. You can get it at amazon. If you can wait for your saliva tests then try. Topical progesterone gives false high readings on saliva tests.
I wish you well
Rosanne

Feb 29, 2012
more suggestions
by: Wray

Hi Rosanne Thanks for explaining about the ashwaganda, and for the info on Dr Wilson, it is a very good book. I don't know why I keep forgetting to refer people to his site, sometimes I remember! But to make it easier for Wendy or anyone else this is the active link Adrenal Fatigue. Incidentally DIM doesn't remove oestrogen from the body, it increases levels of the better of the two oestrogens. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weak oestrogen. DIM increases levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer, see here. Only Ca-D-glucarate can prevent it from being recycled from the gut, allowing it to be excreted. Saliva tests don't give false readings, they tell accurately how much is in the tissues. Blood tests only pick up the serum level. As progesterone is bound to red blood cells, which are removed from the serum, they show much lower levels than are actually present, see here. Take care Wray

Feb 29, 2012
Less confused, but still need guidance
by: Wendy

I'd like to start by saying Thank You again to all who have chimed in. This has become a lifeline for me.

I have been supplementing with sublingual progesterone this cycle since day 14 and notice it's calming effects. I've taken up 159mgs per day when taken symptomatically. Is the only thing in 4 months that has been reliable - however my current practitioner would like to see me use far less of it as she is trying to help my body produce more of it's own, so I have used it sparingly. Because of all the informative links you have provided, I am coming around to the idea of using as much progesterone as I need to feel good. I was also leary of cream, but see that it is not the problem my practitioner claims it to be. I'm just letting it all settle right now as I make a plan to change my regiment yet again. As we all know, it is expensive and ineffective to continue to change from one fix to another. Therefor, I am asking for a few more reassurances that this is the right thing...

As I process all this, I am reminded that I take an estimated 15-20 or so supplements daily. Some are from practitioners and some are self-prescribed. That seems crazy to me. However, part of the reason I take so many is because I don't know what I should be fixing first. I have sub-clinical hypothyroid according to blood tests, so I take stuff to support that. I have signs of adrenal dysfunction and take stuff for that. I actually have Dr. White's book on loan from the library. I'm also reading a great book titled "Feeling Fat, Fuzzy or Frazzled" that addresses the three main glandular systems. When I read up about my symptoms they cross into all three systems. Therefor, I have trying to treat all at once, with conflicting doctor's input. Thus all the supplements...continued..

Feb 29, 2012
Continued...
by: Wendy

My most problematic symptom is anxiety and panic and recently insomnia related to those symptoms and being off valium.

Wray - I am thinking I should re-start my regiment with the progesterone therapy first to stabilize along with supplements that best assist with beating estrogen dominance. After that, I imagine I would begin testing and supplementation for thyroid and adrenal. Does this make sense? If it does, could you suggest which supplements to keep/add (or Annette mentioned a supplement from your friend Joy?) I'd like to get my supplement list under control, and am looking to add inositol, choline, calcium d-glucarate, niacinamide and DIM (crazy?!)

As an example of the supplements I take (too often subject to change)

Between 7-9am-
L-Theanine - for calming
5 HTP 50 mg - for serotonin
Whole food liquid multivitamin
Vit D, 600 IUs
Vit B12 complex - for amino absorption
Magnesium/Potassium 600mg - for calming and heart
Omega 3
Zinc - 10mg for hormone production
Iodine 12mg for thyroid
Taurine 500mg- for calming and heart
Ovatrophin - converts estrogen
Chaste Tree - for progesterone
Meda-Stim - non hormonal complex for thyroid

Between 3-5pm-
Intramax
Meda-Stim - non hormonal complex for thyroid
Ovatrophin
Chaste Tree
L-Theanine

At Dinner-
Seriphos for cortisol reduction

At bedtime
Seriphos
5 HTP 50 mg
Gaba 200mg

Continued...

Feb 29, 2012
Continued...and final
by: Wendy

I have added different adapagens and herbs for calming here and there. I take enzymes and HCL with meals. I have also tried L-glutamine which WAY over-stimulated me, and tyrosine which I think over-stimulated me as well.

I do yoga daily. It is very stabilizing. My Vitamin D was at 52ng/ml in Oct and have supplementing with 1200-1600 IUs per day since. I have recently switched to a high protein/low carb diet.

It's difficult to explain to most people why I take so many supplements and have made so many changes, when I could do all this with one paxil per day at $10 per month. But I know the women on this site do understand my quest to repair my body and confusion on where to start and how to do it. Thanks again!

Feb 29, 2012
Less confused, but still need guidance
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Why are you using the progesterone from day 14, do you have a 28 day cycle? If you want to follow your cycle it should be used at ovulation. There's more info on our page How to use progesterone cream. Although with your symptoms I would suggest using it daily for 2-3 months. Oral progesterone, including troches and sublingual drops are not the best Delivery system, as much gets destroyed in the gut and liver. Why people, including practitioners, think the cream is not a good system is beyond me, there are so many studies showing it does work! You might like to read the page on http://www.progesteronetherapy.com/progesterone-misconceptions.html#axzz1mcOUjSrY
Progesterone Misconceptions. I actually wrote it as I was going demented with the same misbeliefs as you've mentioned, plus many others. You can go through a list of symptoms for one 'disorder' only to find those very same symptoms listed under another, and another, and another! If your problems started after your child was born, and you did not have them before, then in all likelihood the problem is to do initially with the reproductive hormones. Progesterone drops sharply after birth, sending 25% of women in some form of depression, although that is not a good word, as often 'depression' is not found. It ranges from the baby blues to post natal psychosis. Serotonin also drops, the stress of the situation would cause dopamine to drop etc. Progesterone does help raise these, if enough is present of course. You mention sub-clinical hypothyroidism, the probability is your vitamin D level is low, see here, here and here. Although I see your level is 52ng/ml, which is just over the minimum specialists recommend. I would suggest getting it up to 100ng/ml, mine is currently 91.8ng/ml, Joy's is 131ng/ml. This is an excellent video to watch, Dr Holick is very funny too, scroll to the bottom of the Infertility page. Vitamin D is essential for the full effect of progesterone, studies on Traumatic Brain Injury victims have found a lack reduces the benefits of progesterone. Continued below.

Feb 29, 2012
Less confused, but still need guidance Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Wendy You say you're taking 600iu's in the list, but then say you also take 1200-1600iu's per day. But this is not enough. Vitamin D influences over 2700 genes, it is needed for every cell to function normally, a lack can cause insomnia and depression, see here and here. You are taking a large amount of supps! I don't understand the chaste tree though, this is oestrogenic, it contains no progesterone, and can't be converted into it, see here, here, here, here, here and here. How much tyrosine did you use, as it can cause over stimulation if more than needed is taken. But it's strange the glutamine overstimulated you, I take up to 8000mg/day! It can be used in place of glucose by the brain, so helps with unstable blood glucose. I'm glad you're eating a high protein/low carb diet, that should ensure you have enough tyrosine, and will certainly increase your taurine levels. This amino is not found in veggies, nuts and seeds either. I do understand your reluctance to use an antidepressant. The problem arises when trying to come off it, as you've found. Annette mentioned the calming complex, which you could try in place of that long list, although it doesn't contain everything you take! If interested please contact Joy on her website here. Take care Wray

Mar 01, 2012
saliva test
by: Rosanne

Hi

I just wanted to mention. Saliva tests are the most accurate for testing hormones but once you start bio-identical topical progesterone a saliva test will give a false high reading. Mine was through the roof. I had a saliva test before beginning progesterone and it showed low levels. Once you begin topical progesterone the best testing is through blood serum. Some doctors do not know this and will try to reduce progesterone when saliva tests are showing a false high prog. reading.

Wendy, I too took a wack of supplements for the past couple of years but for the past couple of months I have been feeling better and I have to say I have felt great for the past couple of weeks. I can work out again hard and have energy to spare, first time in two years.

FYI here is my protocol(best one yet in two years)

Dr Wilson's protocol for moderate adrenal fatigue quartet.

Progesterone- 50mg in the morning and 100- 150mg before bed from day 16 to period. I usually have a longer cycle so I start on day 16.

Magnesium 250 mg morning and night
coenzyme Q10 --good for cell function one in the evening a few times a week.

previously took Ashwagandha 450 mg before bed and sometimes during day if I get that stressed, cranky feeling. This herb balances your cortisol levels. When your cortisol levels are out of wack you will not absorb thyroid or progesterone into your cells even though blood work is normal. I no longer have to take this.

CDG ortho molecular estrodim 4-6 per day but now I will reduce as I am feeling much better.

vitd 5000iu
thyroid 300mg dessicated thyroid

I wish you well.
take care.
Rosanne

Mar 01, 2012
Response to Wray
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

You are really helping my sort this out. To answer some questions:

I miss calculated the Vitamin D - I take 6000 IUs at time, 2 to 3 times a day, so up to 18 UIs. This dose was suggested by my chiro.

I take the Chaste Tree upon the suggestion of my chiro as well, to help with ovulation is what I was told. Along with that, they have me on Ovatrophin which is an ovarian glandular to help prepare the uterus each month for ovulation. I have a perfect 28 day cycle now, but I have not signs of ovulation. This protocol is not relieving the raging anxiety and panic, my prominent concern.

I have been taking very low doses of progesterone starting at day 14 of my cycle at the advise of my chiro to help me manage the anxiety symptoms. My chiropractor is reluctant to have me use it. Since I have been dialoging with you, I have been using it regularly every 4 hours and it does help curb my anxiety. This is reinforcing your advise.

The page on Progesterone misconceptions was very informative.

I find I have to remind myself that I had a less severe episode of this 14 months after my son was born as well. So you are helping me to remember to stay the course in addressing reproductive hormones. You’ve also given me hope that if I get pregnant again, there is hope that with the right progesterone support, it won’t be the end of me.

As for the tyrosine, I was taking 400Mg in a thyroid supplement for about 1 month. For the last 3 weeks I have had regular episodes of a pounding and or racing heart, palps and not sure about what arrhythmia is. My stress response gets tripped a very minor stimuli. I discontinued the thyroid supp to see if it was over-stimulating me. I also cut out extra B vitamins. Then I tried 250 Mgs of tyrosine on it's own and had heart issues that day. Today, I loaded up on progesterone before I had a big stressful event to navigate and did really well!

So, my plan is to start on Natpro for 2-3 months – I ordered it today-, keep up the Vitamin D, and abandon the rest of my routine for now. Joy and I have been emailing, and has confirmed I might be on too much. I may keep the supplements that are directly related to calming. Should I also add supplements to control estrogen like the DIM and calcium d-glucarate at this time?

Mar 02, 2012
To Wendy
by: Annette Canada

Yes I so agree with Wray you are taking far too much stuff. Higher amounts of progesterone and the Vitamin D will do alot. I take the calming complex that has your B's zinc taurine tyrosine etc... I found high amounts of progesterone kicked anxiety to the curb. Taking the right amount of progesterone will take the burden off the adrenals. I wanted to rush the process as well and took alot of things and it made it worse keeping it as simple as possible. Your body only can detox so much in a day. I take high amounts of progesterone, 10,000 of d, calming complex, 2 estrosmart (has the calcium d-glucatrate and Dim) Omega 3, probiotics, and magnesium.

Mar 02, 2012
Response to Wray
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm delighted I've been of some help. I suggest you have a vitamin D test done soon, 18,000iu's per day is a good dose, and could take your level up higher than need be. At least your chiro knows the important of D, very few practitioners do. Interesting about the Ovatophin, it contains bovine ovary extract. But when was the extract taken, when the ovary was producing only oestrogen or a mixture of oestrogen and progesterone? And of course it won't be the end of you! You might like to read Alison's comments here. Well it's evident it's not tyrosine you need, as 250mg/day is the amount I suggest starting with. I'm pleased you've decided to stop all supps for now. If one of them had worked you would never know which, and would have to continue on all of them indefinitely! Pleased the loading of progesterone got you through the event. Yes Joy did say she had been in contact, and that for now you've decided not to try the calming complex. But do keep the supps directly related to calming. I think you've been on so many supps, I wouldn't bother with the DIM and Ca D-glucarate, they can always be added later if need be. Take care Wray

Mar 03, 2012
Wendy
by: Joy (South Africa)

Hi - Annette, excellent advice. Thanks so much.


Mar 04, 2012
Checking In
by: Wendy

Annette- thank you again for chiming in. I can relate to what you have shared. I put away so many bottles this morning, paring down my supp list. I am doing so much better already and I'm only using the progesterone I have in the house as I wait for the Natpro to arrive.

Wray- still very thankful. I am also keeping up on Alison's page as it parallels my situation. Many of my questions are being answered through your dialog with her. And your friend Joy has been a wonderful support as well.

All the best to the women who are sharing their experiences and helping each other. This has been an answered prayer for me and my family!


Mar 05, 2012
Checking in
by: Joy (South Africa)

Hi Wendy - bless you for your kind words and email. It's been a pleasure helping you.

Take care.

Mar 05, 2012
Checking In
by: Wray

Hi Wendy This is wonderful news, already! And Alison, you should see her latest query! She won't use the amount I suggested, and keeps jumping from 50mg/day up to, she 'thinks' 150mg/day. And then wonders why she has such bad days, in between the good! I've asked her to use 150mg/day now, and if symptoms persist or get worse, to increase from that. Not every time she feels better, to decrease. It's so important to use a high enough amount first, get symptoms stable or banished, and then slowly decrease. I'm so pleased you and Joy have got in touch, she will help you no end. Very relieved you've put away lots of bottles too, all good, but no doubt confusing the issue. Please let us all know how you get on. Take care Wray

Mar 06, 2012
Hit The Wall
by: Wendy

Hi,

I received my Natpro yesterday. I started using it halfway through the day to replace my afternoon doses of progesterone sub-linguals. Over the past week, I worked up to about 160mg of sub-linguals. They worked very effectively to subdue my estrogen dominance symptoms, especially the anxiety and panic. They worked very quickly, as well. As my day went on, using the Natpro, I noticed increasing symptoms of anxiety, so I supplemented with a couple of the sub-linguals to keep it at bay, thinking the cream might need time to build up. By bedtime, I estimated that I used about 200 mgs of progesterone, combined.

In middle of the night, I awoke with a jolt of heart palps, panic and a hot flash. I was thrown by the experience and was unprepared to deal with it. I took some GABA, some Kava, rubbed in more progesterone cream. By morning, I used about 50mg more of progesterone.

By the light of day, I applied ½ teaspoon of Natpro (83.2mg) to start my day and began surfing this website again. It is clear that I am supposed to up my dose when symptoms return. What I do not find clear is how to do this...

How would you suggest I effectively increase my dose while being able to monitor it’s effectiveness? For instance, last night when I awoke with symptoms, should I have applied 1/8 tsp at a time of Natpro, every 30 minutes until symptoms subsided (I wanted to take a bath in the stuff my symptoms were so bad!)? Once symptoms subside, record that dose and stay there each day until symptoms return and repeat process until symptoms don’t return?

I know it’s a rudimentary question, but I think so many of us are used to metered doses, strict prescriptions and mindless direction following, that it can be confusing to figure out how to self-treat, especially in a fit of anxiety and panic. Not a lot of logic and common sense to be found at those times!

I do take 10000 ius of Vit D daily.


Mar 07, 2012
Hit The Wall
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Ah this is so interesting to me! But not to you no doubt, suffering the oestrogen dominance effect. I don't know if I gave you our page on Delivery systems, but any oral progesterone, be it a pill, sub-linguals, troches are not as effective. Much of it gets destroyed, no matter how long you hold the drops in your mouth, you do swallow some. I try to think of all problems people might encounter, but I'd forgotten you were on the sub-linguals. You are probably getting about 1/2 the amount of progesterone you would via a cream. So the 160mg was in reality about 80mg. If you had added the same amount of progesterone via the Natpro, you would get instance oestrogen dominance. The progesterone is absorbed within a few minutes, and you get the full amount too. There are papers about this on the delivery systems page. It was very remiss of me not to warn you, but I had forgotten how you were taking it. So sorry! There is no hard and fast rule about using it, as and when needed. Which does make it hard as you say! So yes if you have heart palps, a panic attack etc, rub some on, as much as is needed to quell the symptoms. Oestrogen causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia and Torsades de Pointes. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, see here, here, here, here, here and here. It's best if you try to use about 400mg/day (12ml/2.4tsp), divided into as many portions as you think you'll need. Using amounts this high usually prevents any oestrogen dominance, as progesterone becomes dominant immediately. I've tried to work out how much you applied from what you say above, but can't. Maybe you could let me know? I'm so pleased you're taking so much vitamin D, but please have a test in 2-3 months time, it's always best to monitor levels. Do keep in touch. Take care Wray

Mar 07, 2012
Amount of progesterone cream
by: Wendy

Hello Wray,

On Monday, the day I received the cream, I used about 100mg. I also used 140mg of the pellets, so you are saying that probably only amounts to 70mgs, so a total of 170mg for the day. The day before, I took about 200mg of progesterone sub-linguals, equal to about 100mg. So I went up from about 100 to 170 in one day, plus Sunday was cycle day 21 for me and that has been the start of bad anxiety/pms for the last 4 months.

Yesterday, I used 228mg of progesterone cream and supplemented with 60mg of sub-linguals while trying to alleviate the anxiety - as I said, the sub-liguals seem to calm me very quickly. That totals about 258mg.

So far this morning I am not as anxious but have physical stress symptoms such as racing heart and heart palps.

Could the increase have caused more symptoms?

Do you think I should go straight to 400mgs today or work up to that? If working up to that, how many days should I take to get there? I am due to start my flow in 2-3 days. At that amount of progesterone, should I expect to bleed?

Thank you, thank you, thank you again!

Mar 07, 2012
Hi
by: Alison

Hi Wendy,
I've read your post and yes, we got a lot in common!
I'm so empathetic with your situation right now! There are bits and pieces of my experience that I did not share with the site, mostly due to not wanting to ramble too much in the past. But here goes...the scenario-stress, 2 babies back to back-adrenal fatigue and 2 gut infections-better after clearing the infections, and using products by sanesco- used a little progesterone then, but was not knowledgeable about it, stopped. 3 months later, adrenal fatigue(really was prog. deficiency again too!) Read this website over a year ago and started progesterone cream- i was having estrogen dom. symptoms and did not know it either- but knew there was something wrong because my hair was shedding, nightsweats before period, fibro boobs. Emotionally, I wanted to do something for me-started my 500 hour ryt training. Used progesterone 40mg daily the entire time (looking back now, it did wonders)except last 2 months and wham-exhausted from training, allergies etc but still did not put it together. My hormone doc at that time put me on 1 mg estrogen cream, no prog! Ephedrine for allergies and that was all it took to land me in the er for panic. It was hell. What I got next was worse and this is the part i want to emphasize- An ativan rx and 200 mg oral prometrium. My computer was down. no one said a darn thing about the addictive qualities of the benzo-not even my ND! My hormone doc was an idiot and gave me more estrogen. I did not take it...point is this, benzos are hell! I was addicted quick. On them 3 months and tapered 3 times before i got it right. Your psych doc hasn't a clue. look up www.pointofreturn. you can look at their info on adrenal fatigue and what the benzos really do to your system, especially digestive!!!

Mar 07, 2012
Hello cont'
by: Alison

Okay, here's the thing. Regardless of the destruction that benzos cause(which you are certainly feeling, i know), you were already imbalanced before them. I mean hormonally imbalanced. Your essence(Progesterone, all adrenal hormones, neuros, etc) was depleted. This is like a triple whammy and if you were entirely healthy, you'd probably not have many withdrawal symptoms. Certainly not protracted withdrawal symptoms which can take up to 6 mo's to dissolve completely- the drug is stored in your fatty tissues. Anyways, go backwards in your head if you can, regarding your history. You know when it all started. Listen carefully to your body. I know it's darn hard with all the depersonalisation that occurs with the benzo. Use the progesterone-i can't tell ya how much. That's wray's expertise and you know my case lately. Rosanne and the others, i totally agree with-get Wilson's book! check out dr. lam online. Research and take all that info and sort it out with your body. Sit on this info and let it soak in. Don't panic about the research you acquire- at all. That'll make more stress etc. Tell yourself- I love you, I'll never leave you, I will do all i can with faith to help you heal!Say it everytime you look in the mirror, driving, etc. Tell your kids, husband to give you mental positivity all the time. Even if ya want to scream and cry and run-do all tose things. You can do this! I am so here for you. Don't take a lot of supps. at all. Stick to the major vits and mins that rosanne states and wray but no more. The benzo is going to wreak havoc with ya for a while but it does get better. But you are going to be the knower as it is your body. Don't touch any gaba or kava or gaba agonists or anything if using progesterone. Too much gaba gave me more panic, insomnia etc. Keep it simple because your body has to rebalance a bit on it's own too and too much 'stuff' is going to make you more sick.

Mar 07, 2012
Hello cont' 2
by: Alison

Sort out what you can do. Keep your diet clean-i prefer plant based 90% of the time as meat only slows everything down and there has to be some level of detoxification with the benzos but by no means - do not start a cleanse. Make food your medicine- take all that supplement $ you've been spending and eat well-greens, nettle infusions!!!1 oz, herb to a quart of hot water- steep 4 hours and drink daily-buy it in bulk from mountain rose online. Lots of og soaked nuts and seeds and lightly steamed veggies and beans, legumes, lemon water with sea salt etc. You will balance out, I know. Eat frequently plants and ya won't get fat either. Eat og meat if you need to for sure but keep it to a minimum. My major input also is this- Digestive support with enzymes and colon cleansers like fiber with anti-inflammation herbs- this will keep things moving, cleanse the benzos etc, help your liver detoxify better and you know. I really stress this as crucial to flushing estrogen and everything else. Folllow Wilson's protocol regarding supps which are like rosanne's but go really slow. Your digestive system is so sensitive now. time, faith, and support-community. you are not weak wendy. no women are. it's time to take all that you need now for mind-body healing. you can do it and you are now. please have faith and do not overdo it. ride out the waves of anxiety and each day it will get less-sometimes worse but really the sunny days get more frequent. Positivity is everything though and if ya got to paint the walls with phrases or cover your house in sticky notes then do it. the mind can do wonders while you lovingly feed the body what it needs through diet and the supps and prog. I hope this helps you and i'll do what i can for you. Make every day a new beginning. period. keep doing yoga and moving cause you got a lot to live for and love,love,love on that baby! Be greedy with your time and energy now and tell your doctors that they need to call eachother regarding you! They need to be on the same page- that's integrative medicine! You are the patient and you do not have the energy to figure it out for them-tell them to wake up, shape up and quit turning their cheek and tossing bottles your way. EMPOWER, rage if need be, you need to be heard now and if someone doesn't want to listen, then blow them up in your brain-envision that- and move on. Screw non-violent yoga ethics right now because you have to reach that point of ahhhhhh!!!! before you can get to that place of healing. Check out ana forrest when you get to a balanced place-Fierce Medicine. Don't go there now though. Too much. But if ya like yoga and you want to use it for healing-then .

Mar 07, 2012
hello 3
by: Alison

I forgot something. Test for sure for vit deficiencies like wray suggesdts-D etc. But regarding the saliva neros tests and adrenal cortisol tests-they will be so totally eskewed coming off benzo and when using progesterone. that has been my experience. besides, even trying to balance using say sanesco's protocols can make it much worse because they really have no idea what to tell you due to the use of valium and prog. it's super highly delicate thing to try to even find 1 doctor who can balance you that way. even though the companies ask you what you are using, they are still only testing facilities. and they won't share their clinical research with you. i have had big issues with sanesco. they gave me a protocol after my saliva testing and wrote *results however may be unsure due to patients use of a drug...duh, ativan. they did not say ativan and my doctor did not tell me ativan was messing up my gaba etc and that technically, i won't achieve balance till i dump the benzo. even then, you will be constantly resorting to testing like every 6-8 weeks. at $300.00 a full panel test, it gets very costly. i think it is much better to use differential diagnosis and symptom questionnaires. also, benzo will lower cortisol and your stress levels will raise it and those levels are constantly changing. waste for me. tonify with mild herbs as infusions-really strong though and tinctures and if needed glandulars. also, Lam says that if you are not responding well to prog. it is a clue to balance adrenals with vits/mins and herbs. remember, inflammation in the gut or anywhere else, demands cortisol to counter it and rather than try to balance cortisol all the time- just work on anti-inflammatory foods and gut cleansing. Then, the body has less need to steal prog. from ovaries to make more cortisol. It' what is called in tcm as treating the root and the branches for you would be the anxiety and insomnia. you can treat them both at the same time. just keep it simple again. not too much. I got great help with a product called inflammacore and calc-d. in fact, i think i might get it again.

Mar 09, 2012
Amount of progesterone cream
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Thanks for clearing up how much you had been using. One thing I must stress, increasing progesterone also causes oestrogen dominance. This is why I suggest 400mg/day or more to prevent this. It usually ensures progesterone becomes dominant very quickly, so no oestrogen dominance occurs. Again this depends on symptoms and how much oestrogen is present in the circulation. If there's excessive it could take more. Stress drops neurotransmitters too, the most important being serotonin and dopamine. A lack of both these causes depression and anxiety. Progesterone helps raise them. But if all of it is going to suppress oestrogen, there's not much left for raising neurotransmitters. This applies to many systems, as progesterone is active in most of them. Interesting about the racing heart and palps. Oestrogen causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia and Torsades de Pointes. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, see here, here, here, here, here and here. So yes the increase definitely relates to your symptoms. I feel you should increase to the 400mg/day, each small increase is only causing adverse symptoms to occur. Normally 400mg/day stops bleeding, or can, but as you haven't got to that level yet, I doubt if it will effect it this cycle. I would be interested to hear if it does or doesn't, and to hear what your symptoms are like, ie anxiety etc. Bless you for the thanks, but I haven't helped you much yet! Take care Wray

Mar 09, 2012
got your post
by: Alison

Hi Wendy,
i got your comment. thanks for replying. i hope you are feeling better mentally and all with all this that you've done so far. i'm curious as to what dosage of prog. cream you are using right now...? care to share-i'd love to know.

Mar 10, 2012
Progesterone Doses and reactions
by: Wendy

Hi Wray (and Alison, this may answer your question too),

Since I received the progesterone cream, I went from nearly 200mg of oral to the following doses of cream:
Monday-237mg (crashed at night)
Tues-258mg (better day)
Wed-291mg (better day)
Thurs-291mg (better day)
Fri-249mg (crashed at night)

Yesterday- Friday (which was day 28 of my cycle) I was fairly well balanced, with worst symptom being heart rate issues and breast tenderness. Both were mild. I noticed the prog cream made me sleepy for my mid-day and afternoon doses (both 41.6mg) and I wondered if that was an indication that I did not need more? I also started spotting which could account for some fatigue, as I get extremely tried the days preceding flow. I applied my nighttime dose and within 20-30 minutes I was dealing with anxiety and panic for the first time that day. At this time I was down 41.6mg from the day before.

My plan was to increase by 1/4 tsp every day (until I read your most recent post). However, I am also trying to be aware of my symptoms and not increase unless my symptoms worsen. Since yesterday was so balanced, I found I actually had to remind myself to use the cream for the last two doses of the day, as symptoms were not present (and I am new to this!)

Typically, when I begin spotting before my flow, my hormones ease up a bit and I gain some of my normal self back. I wonder if this hormone fluctuation accounts for my reaction to the progesterone?

As a side note, I had ice cream after dinner and am curious if I was reacting to blood sugar. My diet has been fairly good this week, and I'm journaling, so I will continue to try to make observations.

It sounds like you don't think it would be a problem if increasing progesterone to 400mg inhibits flow. Curiously, I don't understand what happens with my uterus lining if I prevent flow from happening if this dose does indeed stop flow?

Mar 11, 2012
Progesterone Doses and reactions
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Progesterone is excellent for sleep and initially sleepiness in the day can be a reaction. But I've found with time the day time sleepiness goes, replaced by a feeling of calmness. It's interesting dropping the progesterone on Friday caused you to crash. I'm not sure if I gave you the Graph showing the rise and fall of hormones. You'll notice that oestrogen also makes a second rise in the mid-luteal phase. This is what's causing the fatigue the few days prior to bleeding. Instead of dropping the progesterone during those few days before bleeding, as you appear to have done, rather increase it. I would hope next cycle you won't get the panic by doing this. I'm delighted the ±300mg/day seems to be working for you, so you might not need the 400mg/day. Just be aware of the rise in oestrogen those few days prior to bleeding, and use more progesterone if you feel you need it. With the final drop in oestrogen at bleeding, symptoms do normally ease. Both hormones are at their lowest level then, and there's not too much antagonism going on! The ice cream would cause a drop in blood glucose, this is often responsible for anxiety and panic. The brain sensing it's dropping too fast sends an instant message to the adrenals to make adrenaline. This causes the liver to convert glycogen into glucose to prevent it dropping too low. The adrenaline causes the panic, as it's far too much for the body to cope with in such a short space of time. Make your own ice cream using the good fats like cream or MCT oil, plus xylitol instead of sugar. I believe a disruption in the cycle is little price to pay, it's far more important to get rid of severe symptoms. Interestingly much of our lining is absorbed back into the body each month, the remainder bleeding out. In some cases the lining can remain, thickening as time passes. This normally only occurs in Peri-menopause when little progesterone is made. It's the drop in progesterone which causes bleeding to occur. There's more info about this on our Menstruation page. Take care Wray

Mar 14, 2012
Fine Tuning
by: Wendy

Dear Wray,

I can see how process is somewhat trial and error as we work to get our dosages right. At first, I used the progesterone to help with anxiety and heart palpitations, and as I worked up to 250-300mgs per day, my anxiety became very manageable over the last two weeks. Now I am noticing at +-300mg, I am experience breast tenderness, depression, fatigue, night sweats, anger, migraines, insomnia...all the other estrogen dominance symptoms. It's almost like peeling back the layers of an onion. I was supposed to start my period 5 days ago and was trying to hold to the 250-300mg dose as it seemed like my flow was going to happen. However, I've just lightly spotted for 5 days and have been noticing the other symptoms listed above. I think I may continue to up my dose to 400+mg to see if these other symptoms lesson. My anxiety is only a pesky sensation now instead of a debilitating disease. Huge improvement to my quality of life!

I apply the 250-300mg in four applications throughout the day. At this dose my entire body is being covered daily. I imagine I will have to apply more frequently to get to 400+ a day. Any suggestions of a good routine to follow from anyone out there? My anxiety is not entirely gone so I do experience fear that I may not use it the "right" way and symptoms may increase.

Also, I love the Natpro. It is a very nice lotion. I used to make natural skincare products so I can appreciate the quality of this cream. My other progesterone cream stings my skin as I am accustom to only using natural butters and oils on my skin. The Natpro does not do this to me and it absorbs so well. I have been imagining the Natpro in 4oz glass jar (or larger) with a lovely measuring spoon that lists the approx mg of progesterone per scoop for those of us who use a lot of it or those of us who struggle with converting measurements to mgs. I have printed a cheat sheet of how much progesterone is in each measurement so I don't loose track. It's taken some concentration to get used to the math, but I'm getting better at it!

Mar 15, 2012
i'm done
by: alison

Dear wendy and wray,
I can no longer continue with the cream. I've experienced in the last days, so many debilitating symptoms-most notably, pain in my liver,severe bloating-so much so that i've been unable to eat. when i look back on my journaling, i've noticed that these symptoms have been very repetitive in the last three weeks and i truly believe that there has got to be a less heroic way than by forcing the body to accept the hormone in such quantity that i've been using. I'm instead going to take a more nutritional approach-right now, i'm having to juice in order to relieve the pressure in my liver. i also had a panic attack today that sent my liver bouncing! though this may be the way for others, i'm sorry to say even to myself of course, that my body cannot tolerate it. I can handle some symptoms but cannot tolerate the bloating and liver pain. I truly believe after doing mass amounts of research in the last month, that the progesterone for me, was converting to cortisol, and yes, estrogen. And there is no way that i can, at this point, up the dosage. I haven't a clue how long the cream will remain active in my body but i will be using my far sauna to work on gentle detoxification as well as other means of vitalism that i have failed to live by-considering my knowledge and training. I do appreciate Wray, your knowledge and guidance thru it all and wendy, i wish you well. if you care to know my progress, you know how to reach me. take care, alison. p.s.- i hope going cold turkey does not freak me too much. i can't imagine tapering as i never reached a happy dose that was consistent for more than 2 days. hair is falling lots now too and i feel my chi is congested and confused and nearly beyond repair. yup, extreme irritability and anxiousness and weepy mood swings. there is no magic bullet here-btw am using some homeopathic drainage kit called pekana. and i feel my candida again too-very reminiscent of last year for me. I feel so dismayed but realize too that my path is different-as we all are in our ways. Peace, Love and Light to you all. We are all god's and godesses' children.

Mar 17, 2012
Fine Tuning
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm delighted the anxiety has lessened, it should on the amount you're using. It is like peeling an onion, there will always be highs and lows. It's not until it's been used for months in some cases, that things settle down, and you've been using it for less than a month. You saw Annette's comment, and the very high amount she had to use to help. There's another high user on this page here. Plus you might like to read what 400mg/day did for MM and Andrea here. There is no right or wrong way to use progesterone, and you will be covering your body, there's no harm in that. I often do that to top myself up. Bless you for the kind words about the cream! So interesting you come from an experience of making skincare products. I've made my own for 40 years now, won't buy the junk in the shops. We had thought of glass, in fact the first cream I ever used came in one. But so many broke in transit, that we couldn't risk it when we began making the Natpro. Glass is fine if transported in cardboard containers on trucks, but not in the post! The measurements are a pain, the States uses the Imperial system, whereas the rest of the world follows the SI or metric system. To add to the confusion, all countries including the States, use the metric system in the sciences, medicine included! There is a chart right at the bottom of this page here to help with conversions. Take care Wray


Mar 17, 2012
i'm done
by: Wray

Hi Alison I do understand how you feel, but you have only been using 150mg/day and for less than a month. As I said to Wendy, it can take some months for things to settle down. I did ask you in the early days to try 400mg/day, please see this comment herehere. Both Annette and CL used up to 1000mg/day to find relief. Both found getting their vitamin D levels up made such a difference too. I do understand you wanting to stop, but you haven't been using it for long enough or high enough to really see a benefit. Please consider doing this, I really don't want you to go back to where you were when you originally wrote in Nov last year, and again in Feb this year. Thanks for the kind words and blessings to you too! Take care Wray

Mar 17, 2012
I'm Done
by: Joy (South Africa)

Hi Alison - I have been using Natpro for 6 years now - 7 in total using another brand. It is such a pity that you are considering packing it in but I do understand how your symptoms are causing you concern. I have been following your threads to Wray and it is quite clear that you have not been using enough cream to overcome these dreadful symptoms. You also seem to go off and on it, which is not doing you or your body any good! Progesterone is not an overnight fix, it can take anything from 1 to 6 months and in the more severe cases longer, before improvement is felt. It is so important to make progesterone the dominant hormone, once it is, all else seems to fall into place. How long this takes is dependant on one's symptoms and if the correct amount of progesterone is used.

I have found that by using the correct amount and taking the correct amount of vitamin D normally sorts out so many health issues. However, if one's symptoms are severe like panic attacks, anxiety and progesterone and vitamin D are not helping 100% I recommend the Calming Complex as well, people taking it are having great success with this. Calming Complex contains all the calming amino acids acids which make this possible.

I do feel that you need to give progesterone a chance and increase the amount of cream to 200mg/day possibly more until you feel stable enough to reduce. Calming Complex is another option - it also contain's 5 000iu of vitamin D, so once your level is where it should be you can stop taking the extra vitamin D and just use the Calming Complex.

I do hope that helps you a little, but remember you have nothing to lose but everything to gain.

Take care.



Mar 17, 2012
re
by: alison

I can't Wray. It's way too painful. But thanks for all the help and i'll be in touch. Alison

Mar 17, 2012
re-to Joy
by: Alison

Sorry, that previous re was supposed to be for Joy. I understand very well, what you are explaining to me and I thank you all for your input. But truly, the pity lies in the failure of proper nutrition. I have finally woken from this deep slumber-90% of all dis-ease originates in the colon. The liver, kidneys and lungs must be cleansed and kept clean in order for us to find a natural state of balance and pure bloodstream-thus, our glandular system will furnish perfectly balanced hormones and secretions. It's the difference in school of thought and this journey has been way powerful in bringing me back to my place of power. I have derived unbelievable energy and radiance from cleansing, enemas, raw organic foods, exercise etc. in the past- I mean crazy sex drive, 25 mi. a day biking to work and back...This is the path that i need to follow. Glands must have constant nourishment in order to operate efficiently. Since my last dose three days ago, I have been getting better as far as my bloating-which is a huge understatement! I was in pain under my right rib. I was pale, sick. My body was clearly telling me that i was in a toxic state and the heroic act of slapping on more cream is truly stupid! In the words of the great Norman Walker," the volume of hormone secreted at any one time is so infinitesimal,that in order to obtain one quarter of an ounce of the pineal gland hormone extract, it would be necessary to collect hormones from 20,000,000 individual glands." No wonder we've used horse piss and wild yam extract.But, really, there is the energetic body that is often ignored in healing. Not everyone is going to fit into this cookie-cutter model of progesterone administration at all. people walk their own walks and that's it.

Mar 17, 2012
cont'
by: Alison

Anyhow, this site is about prog. and here my journey ends with it. Also, prog. cream is not natural-wild yams in their whole state are. anything synthesized in a lab is synthetic-plain and simple there. '...any drug or inorganic chemical synthetic product cannot possibly have anymore than a temporary effect in giving relief:the one who takes such drugs or synthetic hormones is the one who may suffer eventually when the body and Nature combine in attempts to eliminate such inorganic material from the system. Any drug that can be guaranteed to relieve or cure permanently any sick condition of the body can also be guaranteed to start some other and probably more serious condition later..." Please study the human anatomy and physiology and understand it's workings. And study food as medicine. Therein lies the answers to vibrant living.

Mar 18, 2012
I'm Done
by: Joy (South Africa)

Hi Alison - what a time you have had. Without being disrespectful to you, I did have a little laugh at your 'horse piss' and cookie-cutter' comments. I have to disagree with you though. Progesterone is vital to every living thing. Many people are confused about how progesterone is made and where it comes from. The confusion arises because many web sites and information provided say that it is made from yam, while others say made from soy etc. Progesterone is made from various plant sterols, all plants have sterols which are often called phytosterols. The bottom line is, it does not matter what plant is used for synthesising progesterone, the end result is NATURAL progesterone, the same progesterone that is produced in our bodies. I can tell you from my point of view, I would die without it, in fact I want to be buried with millions of tubes!!! hahaha

Have you perhaps read Wray's page on Progesterone Misconceptions? She did post it further up on this thread.

I wish you well Alison, please would you keep me posted as to how you are getting on.

Take care and go well.

Mar 20, 2012
Migraines and More Anxiety
by: Wendy

Dear Wray,

Hard to believe it's been just 2 weeks on Natpro. It has helped me so much, it feels like much longer!

I am at a point that I have read about many other people on your site being at: Estrogen Dominance Returns (cue the music).

I was doing well with anxiety, but noticed I had other estrogen dominance symptoms - night sweats,anger, heart palps, insomnia...So I was working on increasing the Natpro. I just got up to 400mgs over the weekend. (I wish I would have just gone to this dose when I first got the cream, but I was still trying to understand the protocol.)

Coincidentally, I had my period while at +-350mgs. I was about 5 days late, but the flow was normal for me and lasted 3 days. It stopped and started a day later (Sunday) - I know I have read of this happening on your site. I noticed my anxiety was up and I had a horrific migraine before it restart. That's when I decided I needed to go over 400mgs. I tried using the Natpro on my neck and face but it didn't help the migraine. I avoided my migraine medication in hopes the prog would work. That was Saturday. Sunday was an OK day, but the bleeding and migraine and anxiety came back yesterday. I was at 450mg of Natpro by bed, and had given in and taken my migraine pill and still not entirely settled or migraine-free. Woke up with migraine again this morning. Also anxiety and heart beat issues.

I started the day with a full teaspoon of Natpro, at least 1/2 of it on face and next. Also took ibuprofen and coffee, hoping to avoid day 2 of taking a migraine pill.

I'm going to shoot for at least 500mgs of Natpro today, but wondering if I should go up to 600mg right away to see how I feel.

With my migraines, I'm never sure if they are hormonal, weather related or spinal related. I've had many more since being on Natpro, however, and combined with breast tenderness and anxiety, et al, I have to assume these migraines are hormonal.

Been reading many more pages on this site. The information is so awesome. The personal guidance certainly helps me put it all together to help myself.

Mar 21, 2012
Migraines and More Anxiety
by: Wray

Hi Wendy You're such a darling ploughing on, so many give up. I can't believe it's only two weeks! But so delighted it has helped you already, although not fully. I'm sad you've had many more migraines on the progesterone, as normally that corrects it quite quickly. As you can see from Annette's comment further up, she had to go to very high amounts. I wish it wasn't such a bumpy ride, but for some it can be. There are far too many things affecting us now, we can't possibly know them all. For instance you've just come through winter, what's the pollution like where you live, are the foods you eat affecting you, do you eat many foods containing phytoestrogens, this paper gives a comprehensive list, see here, do you eat enough protein, a lack of aminos plays havoc with us, a lack of vitamin D, although yours should be much higher by now, the list never ends! I've been helping a women in the UK with multiple chemical sensitivities, she can't even walk down the isle in a supermarket where the soap powders are kept! The Breast Tenderness, have you tried iodine? And please consider taking the calming amino acids. Annette mentioned the calming complex, would you consider it? I seem to remember you were concerned about the tyrosine, or was that someone else!? I hesitate to ask people to use more cream, it always sounds as if I'm trying to sell more, but in some cases it is essential. One girl in Slovenia found that 500mg/day stopped her asthma attacks, they were far worse on the lower amounts she tried, see here. Plus she put on a huge amount of weight. If you try it do let me know if it helps, all this is a learning curve for me too. Dr Lee coined the term oestrogen dominance, as his patients got it. Knowing this has been invaluable. But Dr Dalton never once mentioned it, in her papers, books, or when I visited her for advice. The reason is simple, she gave huge amounts of progesterone compared to anyone else. 400mg, 800mg and up to 2400mg/day for post natal psychosis. Progesterone immediately became dominant, oestrogen didn't have a chance! I cautiously advise 100-200mg/day, when in actual fact I want to say use 400-800mg/day! Most people are aghast at my conservative amounts, I can't imagine what they would think of me if I suggested more. Bless you for the kind words about the site. Take care Wray

Mar 21, 2012
Migraines and More Anxiety
by: Wendy

Hello Again, Wray,

After I wrote to you yesterday, I battled my anxiety with more progesterone cream and tried 100mgs of 5-HPT with B6. Some say this is good for headaches because of it's influence on serotonin. I also took ibuprofen and neti-potted a couple of times as my pain radiates from my right sinus cavity. Sometime around mid-day, I discovered that I felt fabulous. The best day I've had in 5 months. Headache was gone and anxiety was gone, replaced by a wonderful sense of well-being and metal stamina.

By bedtime, I had some anxiety reoccur, so I applied my nightly dose which took me up to nearly 500mg of progesterone for the day. I was hoping I would not need to go this high, simply because of my budget, and that concern holds me back a bit. But continuing to read your sight encourages me that this is what I need.

However, last night after falling off to sleep relatively fast, I awoke at about 3am with panic. I didn't even know what was going on at first. Once I figured it out I applied more progesterone and it helped me relax a little. In the morning, I discovered that I began spotting again. The spotting and anxiety seem to go hand-in-hand.

I have communicated with Joy about Calming Complex. She is great! I have not ordered it as I have so many of the supplements that are in it I thought I should use those up first. Plus, my system seems to be so sensitive right now, I suspect tyrosine over stimulates me and niacinamide caused me anxiety. I've even stopped my multivitamin for now. I do eat lots of protein these days and avoid most refined food. I was wondering about phytoestrogens - am I supposed to eat them or not? I read a book recent that highly suggest them HERE(oops, that doesn't work for me. Here is the link http://www.drlark.com/MainSite/HealthCenter.aspx?Healthcenter=LARK_HC%20Hormones) I rely heavily on seeds and nut to get through the day, and use flax whenever I can sneak it in. Also, 3 days ago, I added Calcium d-Glucarate with meals. I'm trying to reduce or transform my estrogen while I increase progesterone.

Any additional thoughts?


Mar 22, 2012
Migraines and More Anxiety
by: Wraa

Hi Wendy These are the times I wish I had a magic wand! I'm delighted you have had one good day though, so things are beginning to improve. Just a thought, has anyone checked your prolactin level? This decreases dopamine which is essential for a normal sexual response, it prevents depression and anxiety, is needed for motivation and much more. Stress also drops dopamine levels, a lack of tyrosine and vitamin D does too. Prolactin also causes sore breasts. Spotting means you have just finished the luteal phase. Don't forget that oestrogen rises during the luteal phase. It is obvious this has occurred, the spotting being the clue, and is causing the added anxiety. I take it you didn't know this had occurred, so couldn't use more progesterone during those last few days? This also happened to you, you describe it in your 10th March post. It's interesting the B3 caused you anxiety, as it's made from tryptophan, and yet the 5-HTP, which is also made from tryp, helped you. I'm pleased you've upped your protein intake, that will give you the tyrosine I believe you need! I understand about all the supps you have and wanting to finish them up, Joy is a delight and always willing to help too. Please avoid the phytoestrogens, I gave you that link above. Nuts and oilseeds have a high content of phytoestrogens. Too many will counter the good progesterone is doing, and only fill you with oestrogen. For more info see here. Can't you rather eat cooked chicken or meat pieces, or sardines, tuna, etc to get you through the day? Let me know if the calcium D-glucarate helps or not, I've never tried it myself. Looking back through your posts I see you upped the amount of progesterone on the 29th of Feb, it wasn't until 7th March you increased it further to 258mg/day, 291mg on the Wednesday before the 10th March, but reduced it to 249mg on the Friday, when you say you crashed. Then by the 20th you got to 400mg/day. So it's only been 2 days on the high amount. And then yesterday you pushed it up to 500mg. I'm sure you will begin to feel a difference now, just give it a bit more time. I must add here I'm doing an 'Annette' as I call it! I'm using 800-1000mg/day progesterone as I've been feeling a bit stressed, plus I ate too many carbs, which blow me up. Progesterone is such a good diuretic the water is finally leaving me. Plus I'm feeling calmer. I hope you do soon too. Please keep in touch. Take care Wray

Mar 22, 2012
I'm All In, but have more questions
by: Wendy

Wray,

Thanks for your thoughts...I just ordered 20 tubes of Natpro - so I guess am all in. It does help that I found out I can submit the expense to our Flex Spending account, as progesterone cream is considered a medical expense. Almost just went ahead and ordered the 100 tubes, but my husband wasn't quite ready for that.

Some answers to you...my prolactin level was last checked in October when I went haywire. It was 4.4ng/mL, which is low. My symptoms began two months earlier in September when I weaned my daughter. Not really sure what all this means.

As for the spotting I'm experiencing, it is actually occurring after my flow. I started my flow on March 14, I bled for 3 days, it stopped for one day (I had increase symptoms that day), then it started up again for one day - That was Sunday. I have had spotting here and there since then (today is Thursday). I'm not worried about the spotting accept it seems to follow a difficult day and I'm trying to put clues together.

Like so many of the observations I make, they are still circumstantial most of the time, like the B3. I took a 500mg pill this past weekend and had anxiety jolts in the following hours. Could have been something else, but it's on my watch list.

On another note, I have figured out that I can take glutamine, I just need to take smaller doses at a time to avoid the over-stimulation. I took 1000mgs once and buzzed around all day like a crazy person. At a smaller dose, it helps energize me during that afternoon slump, without a crash. I read that you recommended it at night for someone who may have insulin resistance causing morning anxiety, which I suspect in myself. I am just afraid to take it at night because of how it stimulates me.

I am planning to get some new testing done at my doctor's and confess to her that I am using tons of progesterone. I hope she will support me. I am interested in getting my liver function tested. I was on a long prescription of diflucan back about a year ago now when I was breast-feeding because I had a ductile yeast infection. I have heard that diflucan is very bad for the liver and wonder if it effecting my estrogen levels. Also, I want to have her test for insulin resistance and Vitamin D. I have been on high levels of Vit D for almost 6 months, so I'm thinking it should be up by now. Any other ideas for what I should have my doc check out?

Mar 24, 2012
I'm All In, but have more questions
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm delighted you're going to continue. 100 tubes would be a bit of overkill, unless like Annette you have 3 daughters and a husband all using it too! She tells us he's using 400-600mg/day! Apparently he's very stressed. Your prolactin would still have been high prior to weaning, but once weaned it would begin dropping. It's interesting but many women have low libidos when breast feeding, the high prolactin is suppressing the dopamine essential for a normal sexual response. I still feel the higher oestrogen prior to bleeding is increasing your anxiety. So pleased you tried the glutamine again, but a lower dose. I find it keeps me going in the afternoon too. And at night, it can help blood glucose, but if you try it I suggest an even lower dose. Best not to take it at the same time as tryptophan or 5-HTP, as this tends to get shunted to one side by the other aminos. Diflucan can cause liver problems, but it's rare, see here and here. If you should get an infection again, please see our page on Candida. There is no single test for insulin resistance, it's a series of tests rather, see Hormone Testing. I do advise not having the GTT, I find all that glucose is a shock to the system. It would be an excellent idea to have your vitamin D tested now. Hopefully it's much higher, mine is now 92ng/ml, but a friend's is 129ng/ml and she feels fine! If you have your progesterone tested don't panic at the high level, and don't let your doctor panic either. It can get very high when supplementing, see here. We also run Saliva Tests via a naturopath in the UK. Her ratio of P:E2 is currently 800:1. I can't think of any others you should have done, symptoms are your best guide. Do let me know the outcome of the vitamin D test. Take care Wray


Apr 04, 2012
How are you?
by: Alison

Hi Wendy,

I've been thinking a lot about you lately. I wonder if you are okay-how's it going? I also want to tell you that i have a new oriental medical doctor and accupuncturist. It would be worthwhile to see if there are any in your area. What i was experiencing in my posts is what is called liver chi stagnation with uprising liver yang-hence, the extreme pain. unfortunately, the progesterone was not the ticket for me. I have been juicing daily for 3 weeks now as well as following a liver balancing diet with plenty of fresh greens and grains and beans. I've also done a gallbladder flush and the contents excreted were extraordinary. I am healing. However, my healer believes that mostof my agony stems from a pelvic infection that was not properly resolved five years ago...after the birth of my second child-coincidentally, that was when all the misery began. Also, energetically, we hold major baggage in the 1st and 2nd chakra bodies!It seems i've been strong enough to keep it at bay but it affects all aspects of my energetic being and hence, physical and emotional. I really hope that you'd consider what i am telling you because i know in my heart that this is the path of healing for me and oftentimes we have to try many before we find one that our body responds to. My doc is unlike my past accupuncturists because he has many other modalities that he uses. I will keep thinking of you with much love and healing. p.s- google tcm and the disorders that you are experiencing. Also, when there is a pathogen in the body, tonification...via progesterone will greatly worsen your body and harm it. First, remove the pathogen , then tonify.

Apr 05, 2012
To Alison
by: Wendy

Hi Alison, I am happy for your that you found your path and possible the root cause of your illness. I appreciate you sharing.

The progesterone is working very well for me right now and it's the only thing that has worked in 6 months. As I feel better, I plan to address deeper health issues, but for now, I just needed to settle down and this has done it for me.

All the best!
Wendy

Apr 05, 2012
Checking In Again with a question
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

Everything is progressing nicely here. I was up to a does of 3 1/2 tsp for about 2 weeks now and feeling good. I have lingering issue but was not ready to increase my dose since the most severe symptom of anxiety is well under control. It has given me a chance to experiment with the aminos I have and have found a nice "cocktail" that supplements the progesterone when fighting anxiety and arrhythmias. My heart palps and racing heart beat are almost extinct. What a huge relief.

Question: I woke up this morning with nervousness for the first time in a while. I have nothing but a typical day ahead of me. Then it occurred to me to check my cycle- lo and behold, it is day 22. This is when I have my most extreme symptoms, so upon recognizing this, I plan to up my progesterone. My question is - when I pass through the next week of higher anxiety and other PMS symptoms, do I plan to decrease the dose back down to 3 1/2 tsp (+-583mg)? And if so, how do I decrease? I think I read somewhere to decrease 16mg per day. Is that right, and how much is 16mg? My application is somewhat arbitrary. I use a measuring spoon but sometimes it's scant and sometimes it's heaping. Or, do I stay at higher does because my Cycle Day 22 symptoms indicate I need to be at a higher does daily to prevent CD 22 symptoms next month. My cycle has been 27-30 days for the last year or so. Not sure if I will have flow this month. It is my first cycle of high progesterone administration. For the last week (around day 14 and on) I have had very mild spotting, like pinkish/brown mucus.

I have been so happy with my progesterone therapy. I have gone days at a time without anxiety and I have a more positive outlook these days. I feel for the first time in months that I can handle my life and responsibilities.

Apr 07, 2012
How are you?
by: Wray

Hi Alison I'm so pleased you've found a TCM practitioner to help you, it's an amazing system. I gave myself severe eczema 12 years ago, I was giving talks on progesterone at the time. The countless women who would recount their tales about the 'cut, burn, poison' they had endured caused great anger in me, which in turn caused the eczema. It was only the TCM practitioner who realised this, and three sessions later the eczema had gone. I agree about getting rid of pathogens, but believe in the TCM view, that pathogens are opportunists. If the environment is weak, a pathogen will attack. So it's always best to heal the environment first, the pathogen will then no longer be able to attack. I hope your healing goes well. Take care Wray

Apr 07, 2012
Checking In Again with a question
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm so delighted, I thought the higher amount would help you. Also delighted you've found the aminos that help, they are most remarkable. As soon as I saw your first sentence about nervousness, I immediately wondered where you were in your cycle! I'm so glad you thought about that too, the rise in oestrogen does it each time. Catches so many unawares too. I do recommend reducing slowly, I suggest the 16mg per reduction as that's 1/2ml of cream. If your measuring is arbitrary that also might be causing problems. Maybe you weren't using enough leading up to day 22? For instance a scant 5ml (1tsp) would be about 150-160mg, but a heaped one could be 200-220mg. That's a variation of 70mg taking the low and the high of the above figures. Even more if you're using 3 or more teaspoons. So reducing by 16mg in this instance isn't going to do much! But as you seem to have the hang of using progesterone, I think you should go by instinct. You seem to tolerate a much bigger variation, so reduce by 1ml per day, or possibly 2ml, ie 33-66mg progesterone. You'll soon know if this is too great. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Apr 19, 2012
Looking for Reassurance
by: Wendy

Hello Again,

Well, I had a visit with my doctor today. I went to her for a Vit D test and to ask for help figuring out my adrenal and thyroid situation. I told her I was using 700+mg of progesterone. And even though she is an integrative practitioner, she was shocked at that amount. I got the lecture that it just keeps creating more receptors so I will just forever be increasing estrogen too. In the end, she did agree to do the Vitamin D test & liver test and wants me to do a saliva test for hormones and adrenals. However, in order to do so, she needs me off the progesterone for at least 5 days. That sounds impossible to me. Does this sound right to you?? I'm guessing "of course not"? I was not planning on hormone testing because it seems to be backwards at this point. However, she won't treat me for these issues if she doesn't have the test. I even asked her to prescribe oral for me, as I could wean from cream to oral for the test and go back on cream. She said it was a liability for her to prescribe or treat without testing. The sad thing is that she's one of the only holistic type doctors in the area and she came highly recommended.

Anyway, I had the blood drawn so I should know what my Vitamin D level is by next week.

One of the reasons I was asking for help with adrenals and thyroid is because I have been reading a book my Julia Ross called THE MOOD CURE which I think is an excellent book. She suggests that if amino don't work well then it points to thyroid dysfunction because the aminos are not being metabolized well. My THS tested low 3 months ago. I treated it with a supplement that had tyrosine in it and it gave me heart palps and arrhythmias, so I discontinued.

cont...

Apr 19, 2012
Looking for Reassurance, part 2
by: Wendy

part 2...


I've had a tough time since my last post. I got more anxious on day 22 of my cycle so I upped my dose of progesterone cream to 4 tsp a day (666mgs) It suppressed my flow as you warned it may do. I'm 8 days past when my flow would have been. My only problem not having a flow is that I have no idea what my hormones are up to and when I might expect a shift that would increase anxiety. The last two days have been VERY anxious. I'm now taking 750mgs of progesterone per day and yet I'm back to being sleepless, panicky at night and nervous upon waking in the morning. I have night sweats and am battling migraines again. I was re-reading my old posts here and see that Annette suggested right off the bat that I start at 800mgs. It sounded like so much, but I wish I would have understood more then.

I just need reassurance that I should keep at it. When I'm in this state I get very uptight about the amount of progesterone I'm using and how long I will have to use it, and if it is at all possible I will ever be able to wean myself off or down to a more manageable and affordable dose without going through this all over again. Thank God my husband tells me to stay the course - it helps focus me. However, I'm disheartened by the returning anxiety and panic.


I'm also bummed about the fact that aminos are not working very well. I tried tyrosine again for a couple of days after it has been out of my system for a while. I did two days of 1000mg of Tyrosine and 200mg of 5-HTP and felt wonderful. I had mental clarity and drive like I can't ever remember having and was so hopeful about my recovery. Then the heart arrhythmia returned. I did find info online that tyrosine can cause palps and arrhythmias. I stopped taking it cold turkey and now wonder if it caused the anxiety to reoccur even at such a high does of progesterone? I did take a 250mg dose yesterday after lunch because I found myself brain-dead. It gave me wonderful brain energy, but did cause my heart to speed up a little.

The 5-HTP alone does not do much at 200mg per day. I still take taurine, inositol, choline, niacinamide (I found at smaller doses, it does not cause anxiety like it was) and glutamine. I found glycine depressed me to the point that I was outrageously angry and short with everyone. Again, this is why I was wondering about my thyroid function.

A last question, is do you think it would be more beneficial to divide my progesterone doses up more throughout the day? I'm guessing I need to up my dose again given my symptoms? I currently apply 1 tsp first thing in the morning, then 1/2tsp 4x a during the day and 1 1/4 tsp before bed. I still don't sleep well without taking passionflower, valerian root, and sometimes melatonin. But I am wondering if using small amount more often would help control symptoms better?

Thank you,
Wendy

Apr 20, 2012
Looking for Reassurance
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm so dismayed you're still struggling. I do hope it is helping you in some way, 2 weeks ago it was. I didn't realise you had upped it again. You are currently using the progesterone 6 times a day, you could think of trying it hourly. Do you feel you need 750mg/day? That increase in progesterone could have been the cause of the anxiety, it has to settle down again. Or it could have been the tyrosine, I think the 1000mg was far too much, it needs to go up slowly. If you can stay with the 250mg/day the heart palps might calm down. You do react quickly to the aminos, in ways which surprise me, as glycine is normally so calming. And the niacinamide acts on the benzo receptors, so should help calm you. I think trying all the aminos is a good idea, but please start off slowly with them, I think you go too high initially, and it could be this which is upsetting you. Using more progesterone wont make more oestrogen, how strange. High levels of progesterone suppress oestrogen. Going off the progesterone is pointless. The whole idea of a saliva test is to see what level you have now. Not what it will drop to. It will be high, no doubt about that. In fact one doctor I know who prescribes progesterone wont use saliva tests as it gives such a high reading. But I feel it gives you a better idea of how much is circulating, as serum tests aren't that accurate. They only test the amount in the serum, as this is about half the volume of blood, and most of the progesterone is bound to the red blood cells, you get a low reading. This is an excellent article here. If you really feel you need a test, you can order a kit from ZRT Labs. Julia Ross is so excellent, that book is one of my bibles, she writes so well too. And yes she does say if the aminos aren't helping, it could be the thyroid. But your TSH, how low is low? I liken this to the whip on the donkeys back, beating the thyroid to make more T3 and T4. If it's low it means it's done it's job. If it's high it means it's in whipping mode! We do have a page on Hormone Testing. The TSH range is 0.4 to 4.0 mIU/L. Have a look at Stop the Thyroid Madness website, it's quite comprehensive. Continued below.

Apr 20, 2012
Looking for Reassurance part 2
by: Wray

Hi Wendy You might like to contact Annette and have a chat with her, she never minds this. To do so is quite complicated, as I don't have her email address, but Joy does. So please contact Joy via her website here. She will pass on your email to Annette. I know she's still using high amounts. I can't think of any other calming nutrient you could take, although I know there are herbs but I'm not familiar enough with them. The only one I can think of is rhodiola, have you tried it? Rosanne recommended ashwaganda, but I think you tried that. And did you look at Dr Wilsons site on the adrenals that Rosanne gave you? My feelings are those would be more stressed than the thyroid. And please remember too that it's early days yet, you've only been using the cream for about 6 weeks, and the higher amounts for about 3 weeks? Please use the aminos low dose, and increase gradually, do everything slowly, except the progesterone. Let me know the result of your vitamin D test, and please keep in touch. Take care Wray

Apr 21, 2012
Looking for Reassurance
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I've just answered another women who's been struggling like you. Not with PND and anxiety, but other problems. The progesterone was helping, but not completely. She did some research and found she needed potassium for her symptoms, which has helped her enormously. Mineral imbalances can affect us badly. I would like you to get your copper levels checked. High copper causes depression, anxiety and even psychosis, see here and here. This last link is to Safe Harbour, an excellent site. You'll see a subject list, please scroll down to copper. Please get your zinc checked too, as the two minerals work together, each suppressing the other if too high. Oestrogen increases copper, decreases zinc, progesterone does the reverse. But there's a limit to how effective they are in changing the levels. PMS and PND are often a result of having high copper. Take care Wray

Apr 21, 2012
Hmm
by: Alison

Hi Wendy and Wray,

I am doing better Wray. Thanks for asking. I am especially blessed to have met a healer who is so gifted. He is a constant reminder to me about how multi-faceted we are as humans when it comes to healing. He also constantly reminds me of the power of accessing our other 'bodies' to heal as opposed to only looking to the 'physical body' as a vehicle for healing. I really want to shout out to Wendy. There's so much advice out there and oftentimes we get trapped in this heroic way of trying to 'fix' ourselves. Yeah we want to feel better so we'll try anything. Sometimes though, our path to healing is better seen and 'felt' by others who have been blessed with the ability to intuit. Please stop the madness. Progesterone is not the magic bullet for you right now. Sure you may need it. Sure you may need minerals-we all do. But you are more than meets the eye...and there is always and i mean always an emotional and spiritual side of dis-ease. And if it is not dealt with, no matter what you eat, drink or supplement will have little effect. I hope you can find a healer in your area that you resonate with completely.

Apr 23, 2012
Copper
by: Wendy

Dear Wray,

Your post is so well timed. I just stumbled upon a blurb about copper in one of my nutrition books the night before you posted this. There are not coincidences, right?

In a blood test 6 months ago when my symptoms began I was low in zinc. I took extra zinc for about 1 month. Did not re-test because I did not have much guidance.

I have found several very comprehensive articles on copper over the weekend. They even describe a "Copper Personality" - a person who is prone to retain more copper naturally and this totally fits my personality. They describe how copper moms pass this on to their babies...and it is connected to Attention Deficit, something my son struggles with. AND how copper perpetuates candida overgrowth which I also suspect in me and my children. Once copper is reduced, yeast can be more effectively controlled.

My next task is to be tested. There are different theories on the most effective testing method, so I will be doing a little more research.

Thank you for this lead!
Wendy

Apr 23, 2012
Anxious and Confused
by: Wray

Hi Alison How kind of you to come back to us. And you are blessed to find someone you can work with, oftentimes they are far and few between. Maybe Wendy can find one. There's no doubt the progesterone has helped her, as she's said. But there are so many variables it's difficult to know where to turn. I'm a great believer in healing the emotions, to me the best therapy is EFT. It's so quick and effective, although I do think TCM is hard to beat too. Take care Wray

Apr 23, 2012
Copper
by: Wray

Hi Wendy How amazing! And no there are no coincidences, we are all connected. I've not heard of the 'copper personality', but excess copper would cause one to be one! I don't know if you've had a chance to read those links I gave you, but William Walsh says in one of his articles……."The large HRI database suggests that copper overload and zinc depletion are the most common metal-metabolism abnormalities in behavior, ADHD, autism, depression, bipolar disorders, and schizophrenia." It's debatable which is the best system to test for, some swear by hair mineral analysis, see Trace Elements. But there are some rare occasions when copper is sequestered in the cells and liver, it's called Wilson's disease, which I don't think you have! This would probably be better done by a blood test. I do wonder about the copper and Candida connection. Oestrogen increases copper, but oestrogen also exacerbates candida, the chicken or the egg? I feel it's the chicken! One of the best chelators of heavy metals is N-acetyl cysteine, see here. In fact I take about 2000mg/day, I also get all the women who have heavy bleeding to take it too, works a charm. It detoxes methylmercury, gold, silver, copper, mercury, lead, and arsenic. It's used for acetaminophen poisoning too, plus any lung problems like cystic fibrosis, cancer, bronchitis etc. Have you tried tyrosine for your son, as that also helps ADD symptoms. Do let me know your results if you get the test done, best they do zinc too. Take care Wray


Apr 23, 2012
Copper
by: Wendy

Dear Wray,

I've decided to go with a hair analysis. My chiropractor does them and he's fairly certain he can help me figure this out. As I read more about copper toxicity I found a source that points to smoking as a zinc depletor/copper increaser. My mother has been a smoker since 19 years old. Not only must she be copper toxic, but she smoked right through her pregnancies so it's very likely that I inherited a copper excess and continued to be around second hand smoke the first 18 years of my life. Smoking also lowers histamine levels which can cause digestion issues, immunity issues, libido issues and - surprise: anxiety issues. If you add this predisposed weakness to my excessive stress and being postpartum, it's no wonder I fell apart 6 months ago.

I read a very comprehensive post on Copper, Candida and Adrenal Fatigue (http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1309921) It has helped me feel like I can systematically approach my healing. The one thing I agree with Alison on is that it is madness to need so much progesterone. Where I differ is that I'm ok using it to heal. Since I don't want to be on so much forever, these other factors we are discover are helping me get to the root of the problem. If copper turns out to be an issue, I can address that, kick out the candida, and by doing that, take a load off my adrenals and then strengthen them. Then there will be such a greater chance that I can get and stay hormonally balanced without needing tons of supplements to stay healed.

I actually own NAC. I got it from a practitioner in the past, but I never knew what it was for. I never throw away a supplement:) I think I will begin taking that.

A note on Alison's comments - just as Julia Ross says in her book, false moods like my anxiety come from a chemical imbalance. Although I see a psyche doctor every week and attend church weekly and pray daily, as long as my brain is misfiring, I will struggle with my anxiety and panic. I believe I am working toward my cure from a truly "WHOLEistic" angle, and blessedly, I think I am finding a calling within my struggle. There are many who could use the information I am learning for themselves and their loved ones. I hope to share it here and beyond as I feel better and learn more.

Finally, for today, I did start my husband on tyrosine, as I believe he is ADD. He works out of town 5 days a week, but I hope he keeps on it even though I am not there to force it down his throat. I'd like to see how it works for him. If he response well, I may start my son on a small dose.

Until next time,
Wendy

Apr 24, 2012
Copper
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm delighted your chiro does the hair analysis, and is behind you in your quest for health…… naturally! Oh yes copper in excess is much to blame, it's rarely checked either. Walsh is convinced it's the cause of PND, although I do believe it's the drop in progesterone too. Although of course they go hand in hand. And yes to the high amounts of progesterone, I don't feel it's necessary either. I always recommend it to begin with, as it makes the healing quicker, but the idea is to reduce it down to normal levels, if any. I find in teenagers this is possible, but with women in Peri-menopause and Menopause not so easy! Pleased you're considering the NAC, it's such a powerful healer too, being a sulphur amino. It might help the anxiety too, they've often found depression is caused by inflammation. How lovely if you did share what you're experiencing to help others, I feel my own have helped me in my journey. There are too many out there suffering needlessly. Would love to hear how your husband fares with the tyrosine, if he's under a lot of stress, it sounds as if he could do with it, ADD or not! Take care Wray

May 07, 2012
Test Results
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

I wanted to share my test results with you. My Vitamin D only went up from 51 to 55ng/ml. My Magnesium level was also low at 5.5 mg/dl. I was very surprised by both of these as I have been heavily supplementing the Vit D at 12-16000 ius per day for months and I have supplemented magnesium for years because it always helped with a sound night sleep. In addition to these two results, my blood work shows that I am prediabetic and my THS increased again and is up to 4.95 uU/ml. It was just 2.63 6 months ago.

None of this makes sense to me as I have done nothing but improve my lifestyle in the last six months. I am still under enormous stresses, but I have found help around the house, I take supplements for stress handling, I do yoga almost daily and I have cut out needless carbs and of course I am using lots of progesterone. My doctor says stress is the likely culprit. Thank goodness my liver tested fine and my blood counts are all good.

As for the progesterone and my symptoms, I'm on my fifth day of taking 5 tsp of progesterone - approx 823mgs per day. I upped it because I was having a hard time with anxiety in the evenings and at night, still have lots of mood swings, insomnia and night sweats. The first few days it helped. I switched to applying it in 1 tsp increments about every 4-5 hours (instead of 1/2tsp more often). It did seem to improve symptoms of anxiety in the evening. I also started taking 2 grams of NAC per day and thought that it was increasing my sense of well being.

As of yesterday, however, I hit that point in my cycle (would be day 25-ish if I were cycling) where my anxiety hit hard again. Just like last month, I was fighting it during the day and lay awake at night trying not to panic. At about 4am I took some progesterone tablets because they were in my nightstand, and 2 of those finally calmed me down. Funny because my doctor mentioned that she thinks oral progesterone works better for anxiety and insomnia. It was a very low dose (25mg) and it did work for me.

Because of my pre-diabetes diagnosis my doctor recommended a grain-free diet. She believes I can reverse my numbers in 3 months and also greatly assist my hormone balancing, thus helping my thyroid and adrenals. It was either that or a medication, and at my age, I'm not willing to accept do the medication thing. So grain free it will be.

And by the way, I told my doctor I was not going off the progesterone in order to hormone test. She agreed to allow me to do it my way and test for adrenals alone so I won't have to stop the progesterone. In the meantime, I'm still looking for clues as to why my test numbers have gotten worse in such a short period of time. Yes, I believe stress is a great contributor, but I've been under stress for a long time. I completely beleive the PND theory, but again, I'm not sure why I appear to deteriorating instead of improving when I am doing so much to help myself.

Until next time,
Wendy



May 10, 2012
Test Results
by: Wray

Hi Wendy You say you appear to be deteriorating, but from the symptoms you had when you first wrote in, you have improved substantially. Although your vitamin D has gone up slightly, it's not as much as one would expect, but for the stress. Stress drops it much as it does progesterone. The thyroid is also affected by low vitamin D levels, see here, here and here. Plus if they've discovered you're pre-diabetic, ie you have Insulin Resistance, this is also caused by a lack of vitamin D. Excess oestrogen and testosterone cause it too. None of us should be eating grains, legumes or dairy, these were only introduced into our diet in the last 5 to 10 thousand years. Prior to that we were eating mainly leaves, animal protein, a few roots and grubs, fruit only in season. We're not designed to eat the products of the agricultural revolution. You might be interested in looking through Dr Cordain's website on the Paleo diet, there's a link on our Nutrition page. All the vitamin D you're taking is being consumed by the stress. Your magnesium too, it's the most important co-factor for vitamin D, but above all it's involved in over 300 enzymatic reactions. It doesn't surprise me your level is low, this is an excellent albeit long paper here. Oral progesterone does seem to help insomnia although I've no idea why. Your problem time seems to occur around days 22-25, if we could somehow break this pattern I'm sure it would help, as it does set you back. Please consider looking into EFT, it addresses many stress issues which the nutrients can't help with. The best site for info is here. This might help break that cycle you're in. As I don't feel progesterone is the only answer, plus you have to keep increasing it whenever you feel anxious. I'd be interested in hearing your adrenal results. If cortisol is high, zinc lowers it, see here and here. Take care Wray

May 10, 2012
im really worried about you
by: alison

Dear Wendy,

I wish i could see you and sit down with you. i'm worried that perhaps the progesterone may be contributing in some way to your pre-diabetic condition. too much of anything is harmful. hormones are very delicate chemical messengers in our bodies and tinkering with them affects us oftentimes in ways that we cannot understand. i really wish that i could be in contact with you in some other manner than this way. i don't know how to do that however.

A thought- the liver is largely responsible for anxiety disorders according to tcm and of course, hormone imbalance. you can google that info. when i was going through h--- a couple of months ago, i embarked on hulda clarks liver/gallbladder flush. the results were awesome and freaky to say the least. i'm doing my third cleanse this weekend. that horrific pain that i had around my liver, has finally abated and i will continue the cleanses for a while. i also juice 1-2 qt's daily. as well as other things, like barleans greens and digestive enzymes and flax oil...i don't take much else besides herbs as i'm an herbalist. point is-----please believe my testimony----sometimes we have to stop taking stuff and clean out our pipes-flush the body and let it clear it's pathways so energy can go to where it needs to and the body can attain homeostasis.

oftentimes, just trusting this-that the body knows how to heal if given the right methods, can greatly calm you down and give you peace of mind in trusting the beauty of god's creation-you.

by the way, I do use---surprise, surprise! 5-10mg progesterone cream on the last half of my cycle now and i'm good.

i wish i could guide you if you were interested. but since i can't, if you need more info, i'm here. I've been keeping up on your posts and i want you to know that your body knows what to do. meditate on it. and keep up the yoga as yogi bhajan says. peace. alison

Jun 25, 2012
Update
by: Wendy

Dear Wray,

Well, I got my hair analysis back and I do have a copper overload. I was quite relieved to find this as I believe it explains why treatments for adrenals, thyroid and hormones were ineffective. I started on a low copper diet before I got the test results because I was certain this was my issue. I am also working with a nutritionist now to help me navigate the diet, supplements and lifestyle changes.

Last week I felt the most "normal" I've felt in 8 months. I've made diet change (mostly Paleo). I am amazed at how much diet plays a part, and I thought I was a healthy eater before all this. I take several detoxifiers like inositol, MSM, NAC. I also started on DIM to lower estrogen, and take 550mg of 5-HTP (tryptophan) per day and of course, 5 Tsp of Natpro per day. For a bad day or to sleep, I alternate between Kava, passionflower and valerian root. I know its still a lot, but this mix is actually working.

It's been three months since I started on progesterone cream and I have been on 5 tsp of it per day since the beginning of June. With my turn for the better, I did try to dose down on progesterone cream, but I just hit cycle day 21 yesterday (it snuck up on me again) and felt the anxiety and insomnia. So I went back up today. If still feeling good, how long do you think I should stay at this level of progesterone? What signs do I look for?

Thanks so much!
Wendy

Jun 27, 2012
Update
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Well I can't be more delighted! This explains so many things, and as you point out, why you weren't responding to the treatments. It will now be one of the first things I'll suggest if someone has PND, and not as an after thought. I've normally found women respond to progesterone, and until you came along, copper was low in my mind. From my point of view I can't thank you enough for persevering with the progesterone, the experimenting with nutrients, various treatments. It only adds to my own knowledge, certainly confirms what Walsh has said for years about copper. It is amazing how diet can affect us, and little do we know. I prefer the Paleo to the other eating plans, it makes sense to me. I've found no evidence that DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) actually lowers oestrogen, but it is regarded as an anti-oestrogen. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer in some studies, not in others. It appears to have a positive affect on pancreatic, thyroid, prostate and gastric cancers, and leukemia too. The precursor to DIM is Indole 3 Carbinol (I3C) which also has antioxidant and anti-cancer properties. These are a selection of papers here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here
Continued below.

Jun 27, 2012
Update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Progesterone does of course lower it, so too does calcium D-glucarate, not in itself, but because it inhibits beta-glucuronidase. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. You mention taking detoxifiers etc, but no mention of zinc, or are you already taking it? It opposes copper so would be a good addition. If I understand correctly, reducing progesterone during the follicular phase doesn't cause adverse symptoms? If this is the case, can you continue trying this, but increase it slightly a few days before 'day 21'. Once over the insomnia/anxiety phase, is it possible to reduce back down to the level you were using during the follicular phase? And only increase again the days before day 21. Or haven't you tried that yet? If you could it would give some idea of how much you need still. Apart from your day 21 problem, the other signs would be increased anxiety and insomnia when you reduce too much during the remainder of the month. Let me know if this is possible. Take care Wray

Jun 27, 2012
Current Progesterone Use
by: Wendy

Wray,

Thank you for all the information! Looks like DIM is a good supplement, but I find that I eat many more cruciferous veggies these days, so hopefully over time, I will have that covered. I may consider adding Calcium D-glucarate, but am happy to know that my liver support contains milk thistle and I just started a very good probiotic. Hopefully these with continue to contribute to my recover. And yes, I do take zinc and recently upped it since confirming the copper overload. Funny that my nutritionist has learned a great deal about copper overload since I started with her. She thinks it may be effecting some of her other clients that aren't responding to standard treatments. I found a good diet from a book call "Why Am I Always So Tire?" by Ann Louise Giddelman. It is basically a high zinc, low copper diet.

As for the progesterone, I got to 832mg (5tsp) about 1 month ago. Last cycle, I added 50mg a day of progesterone pellets before the dreaded "Day 21" and slowly tapered one pellet at a time after Day 28. That really helped me avoid the symptoms. I just forgot to do it this time, probably because I've been feeling so good. For this current cycle, on Day 1, I was at 832mg plus the 50mg of prog pellets, and within 4 days was down to just the 832mg of cream. I stayed at that and had a very good two weeks. Then, I tapered down by 1/2 tsp over 5 days and felt fairly good, but stupidly didn't realize it was the wrong time of the month to do that, because then Day 21 hit and mild anxiety and insomnia came back. Because I was OK at 4 1/2 tsps between days 16-20, when Day 21 hit, I just added progesterone pellets at night for insomnia and anxiety like I did last month, and feel OK, but not as good as I did (but then again, this is my bad week). This whole experience made me believe that I probably haven't truly suppressed the estrogen yet.

Frankly, my reason for cutting back was because I was feeling good enough to forget doses, therefore, loading at night because I was afraid of what would happen if I had the progesterone drop suddenly. One night I applied 2 tsp before bed to catch up on my missed doses and got dizzy. I thought maybe this all meant I was ready to taper. Now, I'm not so sure. Again, my concern is whether or not I have overcome the estrogen. I assume if I still have problems at Day 21, I still have estrogen dominance. Is this a correct assumption? Or can I start tapering on Cycle Day 1 thru Day 14 (assuming a 28 day cycle) and not reduce the dose between 14-28. And then continue tapering? I hope my questions my sense!

Best,
Wendy

Jul 02, 2012
Spotting
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

Since my last post, I have begun spotting. Today is cycle day 1 and, and I began very light spotting on two days ago. This coincides with with lowering progesterone cream from 832mgs to 666mg per day and adding oral progesterone pellets as needed to offset the PMS and anxiety that I forgot to plan for. I'm still not sure if these symptoms are telling me that I have not overcome the estrogen. I have missed my two previous cycles and did not expect a slight decrease in progesterone to re-start my period.

Frankly, I felt so good at 832mgs, I would like to go back up to that and stay for a another month, however, I am having trouble ordering it. I had a 12 day supply left (I'm in Michigan and usually get my order w/in 2 days) and went to reorder and it's out of stock. I can't even place a back order so that I know I have my stock reserved (I order 20 at a time), so I have to keep checking in. Given that I cannot get this high amount of progesterone in anywhere else, I'm extremely hesitant to use any amount more than what keeps my functioning. I'm terrified if I don't get the cream soon enough, a sudden drop in prog will put me in a mental home. This is also why I am supplementing with the oral progesterone ProgonB - I'm hoping to extend my stock of cream. Currently, I have about 9 days left at 666mg - and I suspect I should have my dose back up to over 800 to feel good, but can't do that if I don't know when I'm going to get more cream.

Natpro has been my lifeline and I'd like to finish using it with the intentions that I began with - to dominate over the estrogen and I understand that might be a month or two more for me. However, I'm afraid this could come to a very difficult end and I'm strongly considering weaning despite how I feel, just because it's scarey to be so dependent on an item that continues to go out of stock.

I really hate to complain, given that you and Joy are so warm and knowledgeable when no-one else would help me. However, I feel it's necessary to let you know that this is part of the struggle of using your cream. Joy did say it may be in by the end of the week, in which case, I'd be getting it barely on time, IF there is not too much processing time or too many orders ahead of mine. While I wait to be able to order my Natpro, is it best that I continue to wean, in order to avoid going cold turkey if I have to go a few days without it?

Thank you,
Wendy

Jul 03, 2012
Spotting
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I'm so sorry about the stock out, we have been having more than we should lately. I won't bore you with the details, a combination of miscalculating demand, and late delivery of raw materials. We normally make a batch a month as we like it to be fresh, but this past month we've made 3 batches, i.e. as soon as one is finished we get the lab to make another. This is in the hopes we'll never have another stock out again! I have made enquiries and stock should be in again today or tomorrow. But please leave your email request on the site, there's a message on the stock out notice saying….'If you want to be notified by email as soon as stocks become available please send a brief message on this form. I know stock is kept for those who have requested to know when it's in, i.e. they take precedence. If you have about 9 days left at 666mg/day please don't reduce any further. Stock will be in long before it runs out. And you're not complaining! I know what it's like to run out, and each stock out causes me as much anguish as someone trying to order it who's about to run out. I'm not sure how quickly you reduced from the 832mg to the 666mg, but it should have been at least 10 days, even that is too fast. It's best to stay on each reduction for a few days before reducing again. I don't know if you've seen our page on Menstruation. But it explains why the bleeding occurs. It might be an idea to take NAC, I know you're taking so many things, and I don't know if you're taking this too. But it does inhibit the MMPs which cause the bleeding. Take care Wray

Sep 07, 2012
A&C
by: Penny

Wow what a thoroughly interesting read! And how close it is to what hs been happening with me!
Would love to have an update on how you are doing?
The copper issue wqs a huge breakthru for me and the detox of this can cause nasty symptoms and up the anxiety but as I tell myself when going thru theses attacks "Ive been thru this all before and made thru the other end and I will this time as well" It has been very couragous of you to continue with the natpro, It does take a while to repaire the body but it does, I am at a time now where I thought I would never be, it has been over a 2 year journey but thru diet changes and natpro I am coming out thru the other side.
Oh and just a quick one on zinc it has taken me a year to get my levels somewhat up and thats as I am celiac as well, I have absorbson problems due to the damage to my gut, the more it heals the better I feel. Thanks for sharing your journey

Sep 08, 2012
A&C
by: Wray

Hi Penny Good to hear you are making it through to the other side! It does take time, often courage too, as it can be a very bumpy ride. Any detox causes this, some far more than others. Not sure if I gave you these papers on celiac disease, sorry if it's a repeat! See here, here, here, here, here and here. I hope you continue to get better. Take care Wray

Sep 10, 2012
to Penny
by: Wendy

Hi Penny,

Thank you for checking in with me. Your note came at a good time. I have started a copper detox program, and have been on it for about 3 months now, along with a nutritional balancing program. Along with supplements and a copper free paleo-like diet, I also found an infrared sauna nearby and go once a week. Unfortunately, I haven't noticed much improvement. With the help of my nutritionist who works with the hair-testing lab, I think I will be switching my supplements to see if I can find something more effective. It's rather disappointing right now, but I'm not giving up. I can't even say I've had detox reactions. I have been going through this for 11 months and the Natpro since March. The natpro works very well, but at the dose I'm on, plus the supplements and professional nutritional help, it's becoming quite a financial stress. I'd love to hear more about your story because my faith is waning. Would you be willing to share more about your healing journey with me? There are not many other people I have found who have been through this and so much of what I have been guided thru has been experimental.

Thank you again,
Wendy

Sep 10, 2012
to Penny
by: Wray

Hi Wendy I couldn't help but read your query to Penny, I'm sorry the detox is not helping you. Did I ever give you the details of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center? These are others you could make enquiries at Mensah Medical and the Walsh Research Institute. William Walsh of the last link taught the practitioners at the previous two links. He's done some remarkable research into bio-chemical imbalances. One of his specialities is a copper/zinc imbalance. You can read his research on the Alternative Mental Health site. On Walsh's site is a very short video explaining oestrogens role in increasing copper levels, unfortunately it's too short! See here. He has a few links to other organisations, one I gave to Penny, but I see he has helped start and train doctors at another in Australia. This is a link to one of Penny's comments on copper. I gave Walsh's details to one woman with a daughter of nearly 40, but a mental age of about 4-6. She was in a terrible state, on huge amounts of drugs etc. I've just heard from the mother that her daughter is doing very well now. I hope this helps. Take care Wray

Nov 01, 2012
Question about Prednisone
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

I hope you are doing well. I haven't checked in for a while.

I am slowly, slowly weaning from the progesterone. I'm not sure that it healed me as I had hoped it would, but I am still discovering underlying issues. My protocol with my nutritionist to eliminate copper has not reduced the anxiety or other symptoms of estrogen dominance, so she now thinks that I need to do a drastic gut healing program in order to get my nutrients to absorb more effectively. This makes sense to me because I have taken a lot of supplements and cleaned up my diet with very little improvement, where she has seen improvement in clients who have done far less than I have done.

The weaning process is hard because every little bit I cut back usually comes with symptoms, so I slow down even more. As you know, using large amounts is very expensive, otherwise, I'd just stay on it forever.

But back to my topic, I recently had some old metal dental fillings replaced and have tooth pain ever since. NSAIDs are not working as therapy and my dentist wants me to take a dose pack of Prednisone to reduce the inflammation and hopefully avoid a root canal. I am so afraid to take the steroid because of my anxiety issues and suspected adrenal dysfunction. It is a 6 day dose pack, starting at 24mgs the first day and tapering for 5 days. Since this is related to cortisol, and cortisol to progesterone, do you have any suggestions as to how I might make weaning off the steroid less dramatic for my body/mood?

As always, thank you!
Wendy

Nov 02, 2012
Question about Prednisone
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Thanks so much for the update. But I can't believe with all you've been doing, that it's not helped! Has your copper level been checked again? You could try contacting Mensah Medical. They check everything and then give a protocol to suit. Although it does cost, the evidence is overwhelming they can help. They work in conjunction with William Walsh, who's studied these issues for years. There are plenty of his papers on the Safe Harbor website. I'm pleased she's suggested a gut healing programme, as often this underlies our problems. You might like to look through the GAPS web site too. Dr Campbell-McBride has studied the gut for years, and put together a healing programme. I only came across her site this week via Dr Mercola's newsletter. I'm so fascinated by her research I've ordered her book. I understand your concern about the prednisone, but don't have enough knowledge about it to really help you. If it is a tapering course, it should be fine. But just watch for any adverse symptoms. It's not for too long anyway, but of course it's treating the symptom not the cause, so will it help after stopping it? I have what might sound like a bizarre suggestion. Please try rubbing the cream over the gum area that hurts. Progesterone is an anti-inflammatory, whether it'll be sufficient to help this pain I don't know. The ingredients are all edible, but progesterone is very bitter! Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Aug 26, 2013
New Topic - Pregnant
by: Wendy

Hi Wray,

After spending the last 1 1/2 getting healthier, I find myself pregnant. We're very happy about this! However, my anxiety returned in full force at about 5 weeks. I turned to your site and discovered it is likely estrogen dominance again - which makes sense to me, so luckily, I had Natpro leftover from my therapy and started using 200 mgs a day. It has done the job with anxiety, balancing the worst of it and then I can use homeopathic to control the unexpected bouts. I'm at 9 weeks now and my 1st trimester symptoms are subsiding which has made me start wondering how will I know when and if I should start weening from the Natpro. From what I have read on your website, it is around the 12 week mark. I just don't want to take any chances in reducing progesterone at the wrong time since it is so important during pregnancy, and my midwife is not familiar with this kind of therapy. Could you give me an idea of what my midwife and I are looking for in order to safely begin weening?

Thanks as always!
Wendy

Aug 28, 2013
New Topic - Pregnant
by: Wray

Hi Wendy Well this is a nice surprise to hear from you, and pregnant too! Wonderful news. Very pleased the Natpro helped, particularly after all the troubles you went through, and the huge amounts you were using too. You are right about the weaning, it's best to wait for the full 4 months before attempting it. It just means you are past the danger phase of miscarriages. I would recommend no more than 1ml per day, or 33mg progesterone. You might find this too fast, but as you are so familiar with excess oestrogen symptoms, I'm sure you will sense if it is. Or you can continue to term, there's no hard and fast rule. Dr Dalton would often take her patients to term, and continue afterwards, see here. We also have a page on Pregnancy too. It's the withdrawal of progesterone at the end of pregnancy which heralds labour, and allows inflammatory substances like oestrogen and the cytokines to rise. Labour is actually an inflammatory response, odd though it seems! See here and here. Interestingly no amount of supplementary progesterone will stop labour either, see here. So if you decided to go to term, there's no worry it will prevent a natural birth. I know I sound like a broken record, and I know you know, but as a reminder please check your vitamin D levels and make sure they are high. There are some excellent videos at the end of our pregnancy page on vitamin D, pregnancy and breast feeding. And don't forget the taurine too, so important for the growth of the foetus, and breast feeding. The child does not have the enzymes to convert cysteine into taurine, so it's an essential amino acid for newborns. And their only source is breast milk, see here, here, here, here, here and here. Do let me know how you get on! Take care Wray

Sep 17, 2013
Miscarriage
by: Wendy

Wray-

Well - heartbroken to find out that I'm miscarrying. Just had an ultrasound tonight to confirm after having spotting and cramping. I was supposed to be at 12 weeks, but the baby didn't grow past 7 weeks. I've been using a steady 200mg of Natpro since week 5. I suspect that the miscarriage has taken 5 weeks to start because of the extra progesterone? Anyway, my midwife and I think I should go off the cream to help the miscarriage to progress. What do you think? And do I go cold turkey or ween and at what rate? And of course, because of my history, I suspect I will have major hormonal issues ahead of me and will probably end up back on the cream after the miscarriage is complete. Do I follow my cycle to start back up on the cream?

Thank you - you have always been so helpful!
Wendy

Sep 18, 2013
Miscarriage
by: Wray

Oh Wendy I'm so sorry to hear this. The implantation stage is so important, so it could be there was not enough progesterone to ensure the embryo attached itself. But you didn't know you were pregnant until 5 weeks later when you started the progesterone. As far as I can make out from the studies, no amount of progesterone will stop 'labour' at any stage if it's due. Not that it helps you, but I had five miscarriages before having my daughter, and as you know PND after her. Now this aspect concerns me, knowing your history. Obviously it's up to you, but I would be most reluctant for you to stop the progesterone now. I feel sure it will all come away, but if you feel it's not, then stop. But do start again as soon as you can. And I would suggest using it daily to ensure you have a high level, and not follow any cycle until you feel up to it. I can't remember the protocol you followed when healing before from the PND etc, but zinc might be a good option, as that could fall with the miscarriage. I know you had too high a copper level, although maybe that's not a problem now? And the calming amino acids, a list is on our Anxiety page. I feel I'm preaching to someone who already knows so much! Do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

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