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I am a bit confused

by Pam
(Sacramento)

I have been using a bio identical progesterone cream on and off for 6 months. My gyn said I had a low estrogen level, even though she did not check them. I was presribed the Estring. No mention was made about using progesterone with it.

I continued to use the progesterone cream along with the Estring. I took the Estring out a month ago and started using the progesterone cream only. I recently ordered the Natpro cream and started using it. Now I am experiencing night sweats and hot flashes. I still have a lot of facial hair and thinning hair on my head. I have read several reports that state women do not need to take estrogen that we only need progesterone. I emailed a women's health doctor about my symptoms and she told me to use Ostaderm. Ostaderm has natural estrogen and progesterone in it.

Do I need estrogen or do I need to use more progesterone cream? I am using 1/4 teaspoon twice a day of the Natpro. Should I increase these dosage? My gyn won't order any hormone tests and I can't afford to order my own.

Comments for I am a bit confused

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Jun 10, 2011
 dosage
by: Annette Canada

Hello there! Yes you are right you don't need the estrogen. It sounds to me like you are not taking enough of the progesterone. Increase the amount to 200 milligrams and make sure you divide it into two. Once in the morning and then at night. Wait and see how your body responds. If your symptoms get worse then increase until you find a livable level. It will take some time. Use it without a break until you get the estrogen under control, I don't know your age so I can't suggest what to do after you are level. Wray will also suggest vitamin d and probably some other things for your hair loss. I hope this will help until Wray can respond. Take care Annette
Jun 10, 2011
 Everything Will Be OK!!
by: CamperKat

Just a quick word here until Wray can respond. I believe she is super busy and have noticed sometimes it takes a while for her to get back to people, so I'm just jumping in here since I know how every minute seems like an eternity! You should know, if you already don't, that Wray is an absolute doll and an expert on women's health issues?you are in good hands. She has helped me feel better, and she is a real support network all by herself, in addition to providing this website of information.

First off?you need to use higher doses of progesterone cream, ASAP. You do NOT need estrogen.

Secondly...any MD who says someone has a "low level" of any hormone without running diagnostic tests--should be fired. Third...any MD who WON'T order any tests at the request of a patient--should be fired. Fourth--any MD who prescribes treatment via Email--should be fired!

Regardless of celebrities having their "own" babies in their 40s and 50s, the reality is that if we have never had children before the age 35, we now have a 5% chance of conceiving every month, and that percentage continues to drop with each passing year. Anyone over 35 is medically considered "geriatric" in terms of childbearing--these days it's nicely referred to as AMA (Advanced Maternal Age.) The reason for our lessened ability to conceive is that our estrogen levels have dropped, and by age 35, most of our menstrual cycles are ana-ovulatory (meaning no egg is produced; only the uterine lining is shed). While our estrogen has dropped, what no one ever talks about is that our progesterone levels are virtually non-existent by age 35. So we are entering a non-stop estrogen-dominance state of peri-menopause that can last for 15 years.

This is why women of all ages can benefit from progesterone cream--it is great to supplement our body's naturally-produced progesterone to help balance the extremely high levels of estrogen that we get during our childbearing years--and in our peri-and post-menopausal years it will provide progesterone that we no longer make to balance the little bit of estrogen that we do make. Our bodies always make estrogen, even into our 80s...which is why Dr. John Lee specifically states that women of all ages will benefit from progesterone cream. And remember: progesterone is what builds bone--estrogen is what keeps bone--most MDs have this fact wrong.

All that said, you do not mention your age. But it sounds like you might have PCOD (polycystic ovary disease) which causes hair loss, extreme facial hair, sometimes hursuitism in other body areas--like extremely heavy leg hair, hair on chest or breasts, excessive oiliness and/or varying degrees of acne, and possibly severe mood issues like PMS and other health disruptions around menstruation. All of this is caused by TOO MUCH ESTROGEN in relation to progesterone levels.

CONTINUED BELOW
Jun 10, 2011
 Part Two, continued
by: CamperKat

So if you are a woman of child-bearing age, you will benefit by using progesterone cream to balance the difference of high estrogen to lower progesterone, and if you are peri- or post-menopausal, it will balance what remaining levels of estrogen you have. YOU DO NOT NEED TO SUPPLEMENT ESTROGEN. Do NOT take it. It can cause all kinds of problems, especially when taken without progesterone (Wray I'm sure will tell you all about it, but one of the health risks of estrogen-only is breast cancer.)

Progesterone cream when first used can sometimes cause what is referred to as "estrogen dominance" symptoms--like night sweats and hot flashes--because it is providing much-needed progesterone that the body initially tries to "balance" by making MORE ESTROGEN. It can take several weeks to several months for your body to settle down and accept that it is now getting enough progesterone, which is why Wray and others recommend using a higher "loading dose" non-stop for several weeks/months. Wray suggests using a minimum of 100mg per day, possibly more (she uses 170mg per day non-stop for over 15 years) while the Progesterone Advisory Network suggests this dose for post-menopausal women for only a few months and then suggests slowly lowering the dose on a weekly basis until you are at physiological doses of 40-60mg per day (which is what Dr. John Lee recommended...but he passed in 2003, and there has been a lot more anecdotal information (actual patient use stories) since then that suggest the non-stop higher dose is perfectly acceptable and not harmful.

Also, you might consider using the cream at least 3x per day, the reason being this: progesterone cream starts to circulate within seconds, is fully absorbed in the skin within 15 minutes and is circulating in the bloodstream within 1 hour--at higher doses, you will generally start to feel relief within an hour of application. It progesterone cream reaches it blood circulation height by hour 4, and by hour 6, it starts to diminish in the system. By hours 8-12 it has left your system (everyone is different, but it is always gone by hour 12.) This is why at least 2 applications per day are suggested.

I have found that I start to feel achy (my problem is not night sweats anymore, but arthritis joint pain in my shoulders) by hour 4-5, so I apply 20mg about every 4-5 hours, and then around my 10:30 bedtime, I use about 30mg. It's simple enough to do, I carry a tube of Natpro in my purse and a little plastic measuring spoon. Really, my body tells me when I need it, pretty much like clockwork.

So try using smaller doses more often 20-40mg at a time, or whatever your schedule will allow) and use a lot more Natpro--Wray will likely tell you which higher dose will work best--listen to her--she knows exactly what she is talking about. In the meantime, start using around 160mg per day.

Hope this has helped! Good luck to you!
Jun 12, 2011
 Thank you for your advise
by: Pam

I want to thank all of you for your feed back on my comment. I have been using 1/4 teaspoon twice a day and the last two days increased it to 1/2 teaspoon twice a day. I am going to try using it three times a day now. I have been sleeping better in just the last two days. I am almost 61 years old. I have felt that I have had a hormone inbalance for the past five years. I have asked doctors in the past to check my hormone levels and they have not, even though it would not have cost me anything. Most of my doctors in the past were male doctors and said I didn't need to worry about hormones at my age. I now have a female doctor who I like but I have Kaiser and they seldom prescribe bio identical hormones. I have been taking lecithin for the past month and I am wondering if I should quit taking it. I read somewhere that soy lecithin increases estrogen. Before menopause at age 54, I had all the symptoms of estrogen dominance. I didn't know anything about hormones at that time. I still have a lot to learn, but I will get my health back. I am so grateful for this site. What about the lecithin, should I stop taking it?

Also I have used other progesterone creams for the past 6 months and no change. One place told me to use estroil with their progesterone cream, which I did and felt worse. I like the fact that I get answers to my questions and help. I will continue with the Natpro because I feel it is already helping. Also if I have a question about using it, I get answers. Most of the other places just took my money and when I told them their progesterone cream was not helping they wanted me to purchase something else. This site is my life line to better health naturally.
Jun 13, 2011
 So Glad
by: Annette Canada

So happy to hear you are feeling better already from increasing. You don't have to stop because you are done menopause just find the amount that is working for you now. When you become symptom free the slowly decrease until your symptoms start reappearing. Then you will know that is the amount your body needs daily but not until you are clear from symptoms. Vitamin d is crucial at least 3000 iu's a day. I would also recommend a good liver detox I use dandelion and celery capsules. You can get them from any health store. Rejoice in the future of happy health.
Jun 14, 2011
 Sorting Things Out
by: CamperKat

Annette put it beautifully: use more cream, and then after your symptoms are gone start using less until they reappear and then you'll know the best dose for you. Brilliant.

It really burns my derrierre that MDs said you don't have to worry about hormones at your age. Are they insane?? Hormones are what makes our bodies run. They would never this about a thyroid issue--that's hormonal! You have been feeling lousy for so long because you have had hormonal issues for so long--estrogen dominance is the problem, and the cure is taking bio-identical progesterone cream.

Regarding supplements...please be careful what you take. I have liver issues from taking fake synthetic HRT "hormones", and dandelion is contraindiated for people with existing liver issues. I can tell you, though, that I have done extensive research--like full days and weeks and months--on herb supplements, and know pretty much all the ones are good for my issues--liver problems, detox, arthritis joint pain, sleep issues. And I know to only buy the standardized extracts with exact milligrams.

I can also address your question about soy. Soy when it is traditionally prepared as in Asian countries (miso, tempeh, tofu, soy sauce) is fermented and used as a condiment in small quantities. The average Japanese uses only 2 Tablespoons of soy product per day. This is fine. But the American soybean industry found a way to make money by promoting soy as a protein substitute, and they have been able to put soy in just about everything we eat--in addition to the tofu burgers and stir fries and edamame sold as snack food, it's in protein shake powders, cereals and granola bars (like Kashi and other major "health" brands). In this form, because it is not properly processed--and soy as estrogenic effects--this is why Dr. Christiane Northrop (menopausal Yoda) recommended it. The problem is that it's bad for you. It messes up your endocrine system and stimulates your estrogen receptors and worsens existing symptoms of estrogen dominance. So...read your labels--no soy anything. And it's everywhere, so be careful.

Also visit the Weston A. Price Foundation for more info about food and America...it's a bit of a slog-through, but very worth the effort. Or you can read the books written by the W.A. Price Foundation founders, Dr. Mary Enig and Sally Fallon--the best one is "Eat Fat, Loose Fat"--a stupid title, but it gives the history of food manufacture the U.S. Also buy Dr. John Lee's book "What Your Doctor May NOT Tell You About Menopause"...you are not too old to read this book--he talks about how progesterone cream benefits women of all ages--and he also talks about soy and food processing.

Good luck to you.
Jun 16, 2011
 I am a bit confused
by: Wray

Hi Pam Well both Annette and CamperKat have covered everything I would have said to you! I'm guessing you either have PCOS as CamperKat says, or you are in Peri-menopause, as you don't give your age. Please read through these pages as they give more info. If you are in P-M, it's not an easy phase in our lives, as both Annette and CamperKat will testify. In fact I would ask you to read their own journeys, as it's so encouraging, but does give you an insight into the ups and downs of using progesterone, also not easy, see here and here. I don't recommend oestrogen, we have far too much as it is, in our food, air, water, the skin 'care' we use and more, see the website Our Stolen Future. You might like to read these pages we have on HRT and Contraceptives to see what oestrogen does. I do recommend 100-200mg/day progesterone, but it's dependant on symptoms. Often the higher amount of 200mg/day is a better choice to start with. And as Annette says divided into a minimum of twice a day, particularly if symptoms are severe. Sometimes more is required in the initial stages. Currently you are only using about 80mg/day. CamperKat's advice to use it as and when needed is also excellent. Using sufficient progesterone will ease the symptoms you have, but if you do increase it, please read the page on Oestrogen Dominance first, as this can also occur when increasing the amount. I don't have enough space to finish, so will start a new comment below. Take care Wray
Jun 16, 2011
 I am a bit confused
by: Wray

Hi Pam There are a number of nutrients which help hair growth, please consider taking 5000iu's/day vitamin D, 2000mg/day N-actyl cysteine, 2000mg/day inositol, 2-3mg biotin and 100mg thiamine (B1). Iron is needed, please check your levels before taking any, and there is some evidence the amino acid lysine is beneficial too, see here. Vitamin D is vital for the anagen phase of hair growth, see here, here and here. Please consider having a test done, for more info see the Vitamin D council and GrassrootsHealth websites. Before considering progesterone, please read our page on Oestrogen Dominance first.
Jun 16, 2011
 Annette and CamperKat
by: Wray

Hi there Bless you both once again for your support, what would I do without you! I do appreciate it, plus your honesty, it's not an easy journey, or a quick one. Although some with few problems respond quickly. Take care Wray
Jul 06, 2011
 More help needed
by: Pam

I now use the Natpro cream twice daily. I use 1teaspoon to 1 and a half teaspoon daily. I added Vitamin D3 at 6,000 IU, folic acid 1600mg, B12, Vitamin C, Bee Pollen and MSM. I still have facial hair, psoriais and sleep problems. I have to take Klonopin for sleep at night and use the medicines for psoriasis. My blood pressure has been great, I haven't had to take any meds for it in a month. My blood sugar is almost normal. I seldom have to take anything for pain. I can't afford to buy more than one tube of the Natpro a month, so I hope the dose I am using will help. Do you feel I am on the right track for my health?
Nov 27, 2011
 More help needed
by: Wray

Hi Pam I'm so sorry about missing your post, I can't imagine how this happened, many apologies! I'm so delighted you're feeling better, and I hope still feeling better, this reply being 4 months late. Vitamin D is successful for psoriasis, but higher doses are needed than 6,000iu's. In fact the latest research indicates the minimum dose should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Did you have a test done? Both progesterone and vitamin D help with sleep, I do hope that's now improved. And both are helpful for blood glucose and BP problems too, so I'm pleased those are better. So yes you do seem to be on the right track. Take care Wray
Dec 01, 2011
 More help needed
by: Wray

Hi Pam I'm so sorry about missing your post, I can't imagine how this happened, many apologies! I'm so delighted you're feeling better, and I hope still feeling better, this reply being 4 months late. Vitamin D is successful for psoriasis, but higher doses are needed than 6,000iu's. In fact the latest research indicates the minimum dose should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Did you have a test done? Both progesterone and vitamin D help with sleep, I do hope that's now improved. And both are helpful for blood glucose and BP problems too, so I'm pleased those are better. So yes you do seem to be on the right track. Take care Wray
Jan 20, 2013
 Soy in NatPro?
by: chill@towson.edu

Being a person with Hashimoto's, I've been warned by doctors (as well as Weston Price) to cut any forms of soy out of my diet.I would like to use NatPro, but couldyou tell me about its soy content?

Then I saw something about a form of corn in it and gave up on ordering.

Thanks for your input.
Jan 23, 2013
 Soy in NatPro?
by: Wray

Hi there I do agree about avoiding soy, although fermented products are fine. We used to use a soy based progesterone, but no amount of reasoning on my part could persuade people there was no soy in it. With a progesterone assay of 99.9% pure how could there be? So we switched to a yam based progesterone. I'm very confused about your comment that there is "a form of corn in it". I don't know where you found this info, maybe you could tell me? Are you also allergic to corn? The ingredients we use are as natural as we can find, and you can view them all here. Take care Wray

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