At my wits end.....

by Cecilia
(New Zealand)

10yrs ago I had radioactive iodine to kill off my thyroid.
Unfortunetly I was given too much.
To cut a long story short, I have been left with the severest sensitivies to all medications, that my endo specialist has seen.
It has taken me 4yrs of hard slog, tears, aggression and pain, to get on even a half of thyroxine.
I should be on 2 a day, but as soon as I increase by a quarter of a pill, I get extreme anxiety and aggression and the crying never stops.
I cry every day and have done for 10yrs.
I have tried progesterone cream off and on, without much success.
Within 10mins of using it I feel so much better, but the next day, I am in hell again, crying, screaming and in pain.
Any medication I use works within 10mins, even thyroxine, and most people know, it is not normal for thyroxine to work that quickly.
I know I need progesterone, and keep trying, but I think I must have very high estrogen toxicity, and once I start progesterone, I go straight to hell with the bad symptoms and can't get past it.
I have tried less and then tried more, all without any luck.
I am still hypothryoid and have been told I will never get out of it, because of the sensitivity factor.
My tsh hits 130 at times, and most times it hovers at 88.
My blood test results have been like this for 5yrs now, so that will give you an idea how bad my daily life is.
My vitamin d3 is 28, so yes I am low on that too.
I am also sensitive to vitamin d pills and can only take low doses.

I would be very intersted to hear what you think.

I have tried all medication, vitamins, naturalpathy etc.....I am sensitive to EVERYTHING....sadly.

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Sep 02, 2012
adding things I forgot to mention.
by: Cecilia

My gallbladder was removed 20yrs ago, and I had a tubal ligation 11yrs ago, where the surgeon clipped my ovary, and in hindsite, I started feeling awful way back then. Plus I had been put on hormones for depression when my mother was diagonsed with cancer, when bascially I was actually in hyperthyroidism.

I started menopause at the age of 32 and have never been treated for anything except depression, and all those pills did was make me worse.

At present I am struggling with the progesterone cream.
The first day i have it I feel such relief, I want to run down the road yelling, hey I feel wonderful!!!
But on the 2nd day I feel terrible.
After the morning dosage, all my muscles go into spasam and get so tight I vomit.

By what I read on this site, I see I should increase the cream quite alot, and perhaps as my symptoms are so bad, even use it hourly????????

Please help me here, I am struggling so much.

Every morning I hate the fact that I am still alive, and have to really force myself to get out of bed and live, but I don't want this to beat me.
I nearly died 3yrs ago, from my thyroid condition, and I still struggle with it every day, but I am determined to beat this.

Doctors are telling me to accept what is happening with my thyroid condition.
I try, but I swear I need progesterone to help me through the other symptoms.

My tests show I am extremely low in progesterone, but when i say how sick I get when trying to get on the cream, the doctors just keep saying, I am too sensitive to help!!!!!!!!


I know I am extremely sensitive to drugs etc, but I still know I need progesterone!!!!!!!

As for the vitamin D, I am able to cope with 2 pills daily.
They are natural and are 1000iu, so atleast I am getting that far.
If I push up to 3 a day, I get into trouble again.
My muscles go into spasam again and I end up in severe pain.

From years of these reactions, I assume because of my terrible thyroid condition, my elimination is slow and things tend to build up too fast.

Please someone, help, help......

Sep 03, 2012
At my wits end.....
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Your story shocks me, as I'm sure anyone reading it will be. How ironic that people can be given toxic treatments as you were, and yet natural substances are now being given prescription status only. Considering normal TSH ranges between 0.4 - 4.0 mIU/L, yours are horrendously high. I really don't know what to suggest, it's evident you respond well to progesterone, but then have that appalling reaction. As you've probably gathered, many women get Oestrogen Dominance when starting progesterone. Usually because too little has been used, hence my advice to everyone to use at least 100-200mg/day. I had endless crying too, which progesterone corrected thank heavens, plus a host of other symptoms. But I feel if you tried it again you'd need at least 500mg/day, possibly more initially, and you would need to use it hourly too. But I can't guarantee you won't have adverse symptoms, I wish I could. The pain you get, is it in your muscles, joints etc or is it where your thyroid once was? Generalised pain is often caused by a lack of vitamin D, see here, here, here, here and here. And magnesium too, particularly if calcium is too high, see here here, here, here, here, here and here. Have your calcium and magnesium levels ever been checked? If you're eating/drinking foods with high calcium and low magnesium i.e. dairy, it could be your ratio is skewed. Your vitamin D is extremely low. NZ measure in nmol/L, the British NHS sets their 'adequate' level at 50nmol/L, the FDA at 75nmol/L. But specialists are recommending a minimum of 125nmol/L, although some advocate getting it to 175nmol/L. Have you tried a powdered vitamin D? It could be the excipients in the pill which are affecting you. But it's essential you try to get it up. Continued below.

Sep 03, 2012
At my wits end..... Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Is there any chance of lying in the sun every day with minimal clothing on? Your shadow needs to be shorter than you are before you make any. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. This is an excellent video to watch too, see here. Both Progesterone and Vitamin D work synergistically, I found this so fascinating I did a page on it. A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. Progesterone is a potent anti-inflammatory, so can help pain too. Whereas oestrogen is an excitatory, inflammatory hormone. I really wish I could help you further, but can't think of anything else to suggest beyond that I've given. Take care Wray

Sep 03, 2012
adding things I forgot to mention
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia All this added info helps a great deal. Removing the gall bladder is usually unnecessary, there are often natural means to get it healed before resorting to that. But of course it's never given a thought by medical practitioners. And the Tubal ligation can cause a host of unpleasant symptoms by disrupting the blood supply to the ovaries. Which effectively shuts them down. This of course means ovarian progesterone production stops, not so much oestrogen as we still make it in our fat cells. In fact to the day we die. I did wonder why you had the radiation to your thyroid, we have found progesterone helps hyperthyroidism, vitamin D too, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. But although it's now gone, I still feel both will help. It's so interesting your muscles go into spasm, I did wonder what the pain was you mentioned and asked you, now I know. I believe you have a calcium/magnesium imbalance. Excess calcium causes the muscles to contract, magnesium to relax. Progesterone can act as a calcium channel blocker, whereas oestrogen causes it to be released. These are a few papers on this, you do have to read between the verbiage! See here, here, here and here. Not that muscle tissue per se has smooth muscle, but the blood vessels travelling through it do. Oestrogen causes smooth muscle to contract, progesterone causes it to relax. This would only add to the pain. So when trying the progesterone it's initially stimulating oestrogen, hence the spasm. I suspect you would need a very high amount, like the 500mg/day I suggested previously to overcome this. I also suggested using it hourly too, so your guess was right. Continued below.

Sep 03, 2012
adding things I forgot to mention Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia If someone is low in magnesium, taking vitamin D will cause pain, I gave you papers on this in my previous reply. These are two more here and here. The problem with magnesium is it's laxative affect. The skin can absorb it via an Epson Salts bath, I have one nightly, or slow mag might be a good choice too. At least it doesn't dump one dose on the stomach which usually results in diarrhoea. It would be good to have these two minerals checked, I might be way off target! If I am right, getting your magnesium level up should solve much of the pain, as it will get calcium out of the blood and into the bones. Then you can gradually increase the vitamin D to between 175-250nmol/L, mine is currently 230nmol/L. If you experience pain, you'll know your magnesium is still too low. I do so hope this is the answer. Take care Wray

Sep 03, 2012 really are an angel....:)
by: Cecilia

Hello Wray,
Thank you so very much for taking so much time on replying to my desperate situation.
Yesterday I took the plunge and poured on the progesterone.
I have no idea how much I would have had, but I thought, hey what have I got to lose? ha.
Within 2 hrs, I was so relaxed I felt I was in "LAr Lar Land."
Each time the pain started..(yes its in the muscles, they spasam like crazy) I just added more.
Last night I did the same, just poured it on before I went to bed.
I may have got too much as I was awake all night, but I wasn't depressed or frustrated, I felt quite calm for the first time in 8yrs.
Thats the first night I did't cry in 8yrs too.

I have had the headache/migraine from hell with this thyroid condition, which has been daily for 10yrs and untreatable.
It gets so bad that even when I walk, I feel the pain in my skull.
This morning that pain has eased enough that I can actually look out the window without pain in my eyes.

Again this morning I have poured on the progesterone.
I think it is probably about 200mg at a time.

As for what you say about too much calcium and not enough magnesim, that sounds logical to me

to be continued

Sep 03, 2012
by: Cecilia

When I boosted up the vitamin d 2 weeks ago, to 2 pills...(2000iu) I felt ok for a week, then I read that you should take magnesium with vitamin D, and it was when I added the magnesim I got into trouble.

My muscles went into spasam and my migraine just got worse and worse, so I stopped for a couple of days until it all settled down.
Now I am back to taking 1 pill (1000iu).
I know I need to boost it up, but I am thinking perhaps I need to get progesterone into me first, and perhaps boost up the vitamin D next week??
What are your thoughts?

If I keep doing well on this high dose of progesterone, how long should I do it for?
I see one of your suggestions to someone was 4/5days, and then cut back?

And when i start on the magnesium, how much do I need?
I find that chelated was the only one that didn't upset my stomach, but I was only able to take 100mg a day.

To answer why they radiated my thyroid.
They tried the blocker pills, but they didn't work.
I wanted the operation, but was told the recovering period is long, and as I was looking after my terminally ill mother, I felt I had to opt for the radiation.
My life has been a living hell ever since that day.
Within the week when I had to start back on thyroxine, I found I was sensitive to it so much, I kept getting over active symptoms, and its never stopped being like that.

Hopefully progesterone will make life a litte easier to bear.

I have noticed already that when I have my hot flushes now, my heart doesn't race so much and I don't feel like passing out, I just sweat.

thank you my Angel, you are one of a kind.

Sep 04, 2012 really are an angel....:)
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Bless you for the kind words! I simply can't imagine what it must be like living as you do. I'm not sure I would have been brave enough to continue with it. I can't tell you how happy I am that the progesterone sent you into lar lar land! And that you didn't cry as you normally do. And that your migraine was lessened enough to look out of the window. We do have a page on Migraines you could look through, progesterone does help, with yours I don't know. How wonderful if it did. It's best if it's rubbed all over the neck, under the ears and over the face too. I find if there is a problem area it works far quicker if rubbed directly over the area. Although hair follicles absorb it well too, see here, it does leave the hair looking rather strange if rubbed on the head! So the next best thing is to rub it where I suggested. Yes it is absorbed well and travels rapidly around the body, but it just seems to work better used that way. And repeatedly as you're doing, if necessary. The 4-5 days is for someone who doesn't have your problems, and is primarily for hot flushes. Although even these take longer to go than the 4-5 days in some women. I feel you'll need it for much longer, how long I can't tell, it is always trial and error. I found it took me 6 months to finally feel well, as gradually my symptoms went one by one. Although I wasn't using high amounts then, I had no one to advise me, so all my info was from books. I've since learnt that severe problems need far higher amounts, and for far longer too. Dr Dalton is so good on this aspect, she never once used low amounts, in fact she said they didn't work. Which is as I've found too. Although this page is primarily about pregnancy, please have a look through it. It's so interesting to me that when you added the magnesium you ran into trouble. So your ratio of Ca:Mg is skewed, please have it checked out, excess calcium in the blood can lead to calcification of the arteries, see here, here, here, here and here. If this is the case, you need to take vitamin K, it prevents this (papers if you want them). Continued below.

Sep 04, 2012 really are an angel....:) Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia I do agree about getting your progesterone level up. At least you'll suppress any excess oestrogen doing that, and it's one thing out of the way, before you tackle the vitamin D and magnesium. I think a week is far too soon to try that though, see how you get on with the progesterone first. If the 100mg/day Mg worked for you, don't attempt more than that, there's no point in stressing yourself more than you are. Another interesting aspect for me is your comment about the racing heart and Hot Flushes. Although we're all lead to believe it's the drop in oestrogen which causes them, I don't believe this. I believe it's the cause, your racing heart only confirms this for me. Oestrogen causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia and Torsades de Pointes. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. So please persevere with the high amount, it's not a quick fix, I wish it was. And keep in touch too, the journey can be very bumpy, and if I can I'll try to help. Take care Wray

Sep 04, 2012
At my wits end.....
by: RJ

Hi there,
Just wanted to pass along something with the magnesium. My mother had her thyroid taken out for cancer. They gave her the nuclear radiation also. At first they told her to not take anything with magnesium in it and as Wray said to me some time back that is an almost impossible task. Well, when we narrowed them down they told her that she should only take magnesium four hours after taking, at the time, armor, but now synthroid, that it causes terrible problems and adverse reactions to the thyroid medicine. Just a thought that that may be the problem. And just a supportive word to mother is still not balanced out and it's been two years since the thyroid was removed and thus far, four nuclear radiation iodine treatments to see if the cancer has returned, in fact, another one was done today. She is a pretty sick woman whose problems all began once the iodine was given to her, we didn't even know the thyroid was cancerous until they removed it and behind it in the peri was where they found the small spot of cancer. Lack of saliva, immune system very suppressed, pain in her neck, back and sides of her head all came after that iodine. Not having the thyroid is rough, but that stuff they inject in her, I believe, is the worst. Hang in there and look into Wray's additional supplements, especially for the immune system. Mom has ordered it from Wray's site in hopes to bring up the immune readings. Good luck and God Bless!

Sep 05, 2012
by: Cecilia

Thanks again for your information.

It was interesting reading the link you sent on migraines.
I get very bad migraines, where I get vertigo, which has been known to last up to 6months non stop.
Everytime I was treated with medication, I was told it was causing re bound migraines, so naturally, I can no longer take medication/anything.

I have researched my condition for over 7yrs now, looking at the thyroid, migraines, vitaminD, mg, calcium....etc, and have always come back to the same answer....Hormones.
Which as you will know, makes sense because of my TSH levels.

Although my last period was 13 yrs ago (42) i get worse depression and aggression the last 2 weeks of every month and it has got worse this past year.
I know the thyroid condition is alot to blame, but I still believe that all the hormones need help.

So hopefully if we can get the progesterone into me, without too many problems, maybe things will settle.
I have forgotten what life is like now without crying everyday, feeling drained, hot flushes, cravings, aggression to the point of wanting to hit someone, and the most undescribable headaches.

Today, I feel slight energy, that i haven't had in 10yrs, I have had 2 days of no crying, but also 2 nights with no sleep.

I tried my 2nd dose of progesterone cream in the late afternoon today, in the hope that I will be able to sleep tonight.

Is it normal not to be able to sleep at night when you first start on progesterone ??
I just lay there wide away......
Maybe I should have a party!! hahahaha!!!.

Thanks again for your help so far.
Take care.

Sep 05, 2012
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Hormones, neurotransmitters too, control us. They also interact with each other too, it's made out that they only affect their own receptors. This is simply not true. For instance progesterone affects it's own receptor of course, but also dopamine, serotonin, GABA, oestrogen, testosterone, aldosterone, cortisol and more! There's evidence it affects the thyroid beneficially, whereas oestrogen does not, see here. Very interesting you still feel greater depression and Aggression for two weeks of the month, in spite of no period. Evidently hormones at work there! Delighted you've had 2 days now with no crying and a bit more energy, but I'm sorry you're not sleeping. Progesterone does help, see here, here and here. Adenosine is needed too, see here, here, here, here. So is dopamine, see here. Glutathione too, see here. And nitric oxide, see here. I can only imagine it's that settling in time, where oestrogen is still showing it's ugly head, although there has been some improvement. Let me know if the afternoon application helped. An alternative would be to increase the amount you use at night, or have a party! I admire your humour in spite of the suffering, I don't think I'd be gracious! Take care Wray

Sep 05, 2012
Thanks RJ
by: cecilia

your comments about the magnesium is very interesting.
I have to say I haven't heard that before.

I wonder if that is why I get sick on it?


Thank you and God bless you too

Sep 05, 2012
At my wits end.....
by: Wray

Hi RJ Bless you for these encouraging words, and for the continual support you give me! I'm still shocked at the toxic medications dished out, I shouldn't be as it happens all the time. I just hope between us all we can get the message out that there are often alternative natural remedies available. Before resorting to allopathic medicine. Blessings to you, take care Wray

Sep 05, 2012
at my wits end
by: Cecilia

Hi Wray,
Thanks for your last explanation.

Using the Progesterone in the afternoon, made no difference....still wide awake.

I seem to be going backwards again now.
I had terribe anxiety this morning, which I haven't had for 2 days, and the old aggression/tears/depression is showing its ugly head.

I had some magnesium last night too, hoping it would help me sleep.
I haven't had any magnesium for a week, because I get so sick on it.
I thought I should take it again, because of taking vitamin D, but now I don't know what to do.

My body is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle really.
I have all the pieces, but they just won't fit together properly...hahaha.

This always happens though.
When I first start on something, I feel good for a couple of days, then by day 3, I go backwards and end up having to stop taking everything again.

I noticed when I put on the progesterone yesterday, I didn't get that calming feeling in my head and neck, so am now wondering if I have a bad batch of cream, as I have just started a new tube.

Or I have been using too much.
Because of my TSH levels, I often wonder if I have a slow elimination and when I take stuff, it builds up and then POW, I get an overload!!!
But it's probably just me.

As of this moment, I have no idea what to do.
I can't stop crying again, and feel so sick I am going back to bed.
It's starting to look like my body won't accept the progesterone cream, just like it rejects everything else.

Thanks for all your help anyway, it was worth a shot and atleast I got 2 good days out of it.

Take care, and all the best

Sep 06, 2012
Just wondering!!!!
by: cecilia

Hello again,
Since my email this morning I have been doing something I don't usually like to do, because it gets me into trouble, and that is thinking....hahahaha.

I thought I would run this by you to see what you think and does it make sense to you!!!

Years back when the doctors pumped me full of prozac, I got this incredible "high" and spaced out head on only a quarter of a pill.
I got so much energy that my body could not keep up with the speed of my feet, and my mind was in a spin all the time.
It was quite scary and I stopped driving because I didn't feel "normal".
When I told the doctor, he told me to increase the dose...hmmmm....yes you guessed it, I got "faster" and it was more scary.
I remember I was on such a high, I never slept.
Hence me bringing this up now.

After my email to you this morning, I decided to use more progesterone after all , to see if the depression eased.
It did, and by late afternoon, I was on an incredible 'high", (and still am) which of course reminded me of the "prozac" days.

Now....haha....I'm sure you know where I am going with progesterone helps depression, I am wondering if this is what's happening again!!!!!?!?!?!?!?!?
Maybe this is why I can't sleep.

The question is ....what to do with me....hahahah.

There is no doubt I need the progesterone, and I am thinking it is working too well....hahaha....

So, now what?

I used 100mg today, and think maybe I should not have anymore tonight?

As you can tell I am not your "average" person....
Sorry about all this, but I won't let this beat me.
I was defeated in my last email, but I thought, hey, I nearly died and proved the medical system wrong, I can't give up now, but I am a little stuck as what to do next.

I suppose it's probably a guessing game.
thanks Wray, I'm sure you will be able to come up with an idea!

take care

Sep 06, 2012
high gone
by: cecilia

HI Wray,

Last night after my "high" had eased, I noticed my muscles easing too.
I had not realised how bad they had got.
I didn't have my 2nd dose of progesterone in the evening, and had a good nights sleep.

this morning my muscles aren't screaming, my anxiety has eased, and vomiting has stopped, so I won't be using the progesterone today.

Looks like my body won't accept progesterone either, so I probably have to accept that I am stuck with all these symptoms.
This is not something I do willingly, but after 10yrs of battling, I am finally defeated.

thank you for all your help, and take care.

Sep 07, 2012
Wits end
by: Anonymous

Cecilia have you seen this site it has alot of info in in

Sep 08, 2012
at my wits end and just wondering
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Progesterone can give a feeling of euphoria, that's quite well known, see here. Although from experience I don't believe the amount of progesterone he suggests is sufficient. Dopamine is involved in the euphoric feeling, it's our reward neurotransmitter. The reason people become addicted to drugs such as cocaine, is the sharp increase in dopamine this induces, leading to the typical high that's experienced, see here. Acute, uncontrollable stress depletes dopamine, leading to depression and a rise in cortisol and prolactin. High prolactin reduces dopamine further. The amino acid precursor to dopamine is tyrosine, it can reverse this. But the rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway, see here Progesterone is involved in the dopamine pathway, see here and here. Allopregnanolone, mentioned in one of the papers, is a potent progesterone metabolite. 'Empty' progesterone receptors are also needed by dopamine. You were using about 200mg/day, possibly more when you initially decided to up the amount. But now you've dropped it to 100mg, that huge drop will send you into Oestrogen Dominance. It often rears it's ugly head in the early days anyway. Plus you took magnesium. Both these would have contributed to your dreadful feeling. I really don't think you should touch magnesium at all until stable with the progesterone. And only take the 1000iu's vitamin D too, as it seems you can handle that. I did mention I thought you would probably need about 500mg/day initially, I've found with any severe symptoms the amount does need to be high. Although about asthma, this comment here does show how important it is. This is another comment here about high amounts. I'm sorry I can't reply to your questions as quickly as you write in. I wish I could as you are using it too erratically, the amount going up and down will cause severe problems by increasing oestrogen dominance each time you change the amount. Hope the above helps. Take care Wray

Sep 08, 2012
high gone
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Ironically the oestrogen dominance symptoms do ease when reducing the amount, as the progesterone is no longer stimulating oestrogen. But it defeats the purpose, which is to suppress any excess oestrogen causing the adverse symptoms in the first place. It does require very high amounts to do this is many women. I gave you a few comments by some, there are more if you'd like to read them! Progesterone is not an easy therapy, it does take time to adjust to it, and you've only used it for a few days. There's a paradoxical element too. Low amounts stimulate oestrogen, but by reducing the progesterone, symptoms ease because it's no longer stimulating it. But reducing suddenly from a higher amount, can cause those same oestrogen dominance symptoms to occur. It's trial and error finding the right amount, which can take weeks in some women. It was evident from your initial response that the progesterone helped, which indicates your oestrogen to progesterone ratio is too high. We do have Saliva Test results you could look through. From these we've found a ratio of P:E2 of 600:1 and over is ideal, higher than the normal ratios advised. The naturopath who runs the tests for us has a ratio of 800:1. I can understand your reluctance to continue, but would ask you to reconsider. Please get your magnesium and calcium levels checked, please continue taking the 1000iu's vitamin D, possibly consider taking vitamin K, particularly if you find calcium levels too high. And when you can, get your magnesium level up. Take care Wray

Sep 08, 2012
by: Cecilia

Hi Wray,
Thank you for your last message.

I was going to start it up again, but as I need to use so much and have worked out the cost, I won't be able to continue, as I am on a benefit and the cost will be out of my reach.

I am continuing with magnesium and vitamin D.

AGain, thank you for all your help.

Sep 10, 2012
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia I'm delighted you haven't given up hope of it's use, but do understand about cost. We would like to help you, we're doing this for another woman in NZ. If interested please contact me via our form on the website here. Just a short note saying you want to contact me is enough, and the email will be forwarded. Take care Wray

Sep 11, 2012
by: cecilia

I have left a message for you.

Hi Cecilia I'll look out for it! Take care Wray

Oct 12, 2012
your thoughts on Boron
by: Cecilia

Hi Wray,
I have been told Boron is good to take for arthritis and thin bones, but I have also read that is increases oestrogen levels.

If it helps the arthritis and thin bones, then I thought I would try it, but would like you opinion first.

I take vitamin d for the bones, but from what I have read, it sounds like it would be good to add boron as well.

Your thoughts please.
thank you

Oct 13, 2012
your thoughts on Boron
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Boron is one of the co-factors for vitamin D, along with magnesium, which you know about only too well! Vitamin K is another very important co-factor, one which is overlooked. And so is zinc. Vitamin K is a neglected vitamin, I think everyone assumes we all eat enough green leafy veggies. But looking at the processed foods eaten by many, I doubt we do. Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) is found in green leaves, it then gets converted into K2 (menaquinone) by gut bacteria and various tissues. But many people have gut dysbiosis, with a lack of good bacteria, often because of antibiotics, Crohn's disease, coeliac disease, etc. A deficiency can also occur in people with a compromised liver, cystic fibrosis, or any inflammatory gut disease. Vitamin K2 is found in organ meats, egg yolks, and dairy products. Vitamin K2 has been found to reduce osteoporosis, calcification of arteries and cancer. Drugs which prevent coagulation block the action of vitamin K, conversely vitamin K2 can be given as an antidote for excess anti-coagulants. This is an excellent article here. Vitamin K is one of the cofactors for vitamin D ensuring deposition of calcium in bones, and preventing it's deposition in arterial plaque. Excess free calcium in the blood results in calcified arteries and heart disease, see here, here, here, here and here. Dr Cannell recommends all the cofactors for vitamin D should be taken, magnesium, vitamin K2, boron and zinc, see here. This complex is one he recommends. I've just read a paper by a doctor accusing other doctors over their myopia about vitamin D and bones. And he's right, I have papers saved on my computer about vitamin D which cover all medical disciplines from A to W. I think they'll come to realise one day, that that is the least of it's roles. Unfortunately it was the first role found, much like progesterone and pregnancy, hence it's rather unfortunate name. Vitamin D is vital for every cell, it's a transcription factor, as is progesterone, guiding genes to perform in the correct way. A lack of vitamin D leads to many epigenetic changes. Continued below.

Oct 13, 2012
your thoughts on Boron Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia In fact I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it's vitamin K we need for strong bones, as that is one of it's functions, the deposition of calcium in bones and not lining the arteries. One of the A's I have saved is arthritis, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. I know you're finding it difficult, but do everything you can to get your vitamin D level up. I've not heard of boron increasing oestrogen, it could be one of those myths, I'll have to look into it. Take care Wray

Oct 16, 2012
At a loss as to what to do next...
by: cecilia

Hi Wray,
I seem a little stuck at the moment.

The more Progesterone I use, the more my muscles tighten.
I use to get weekly massages to try and ease pain, but the lady i go to is really struggling to get past the tightness.

If I cut back on progesterone, they loosen up slightly, but the migraines and depression come back with avengence.

I am taking 700mg magnesium now and 2000units of vitamin D.
If I go higher on vitamin D, I get sick, so there isn't any point in me doing that.

I have tried taking Zinc as well ,but I just get nausea and vomiting, so had to stop.

Not sure what to do next.
Wondering if I should stop the progesterone.
the tightness in the muscles is so bad, it is bringing back my vertigo.

I really thought I might be making headway by now.
It's been over a month.

I know when I first put on the cream, for a couple of minutes I feel instant relief, but within half and hour, I am in pain from the tightness and that also causes really bad jaw clenching....

It's looking like I won't be one of those people who is going to be able to get out of this pickle..

Do you have any suggestions?
I guess we have probably tried most things.

thanks anyway.
take care

Oct 16, 2012
I forgot to mention too that...
by: cecilia

the more progesterone I have, the more palpatations I get.
Which again, makes me cut back on progesterone.
But the worst is the muscles spasams.
I am so bad at the moment, that the pain in my ears and jaw is way over a 10.

Magnesium doesn't seem to help, and I don't know how much more magnesium I can take.
I have read that you can take up to 900mg, but some sites say that is too much.


Oct 18, 2012
At a loss as to what to do next...
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia I'm sorry to hear you're struggling so. You've given me how much magnesium you're taking, and the vitamin D. Although in a previous answer you said you could only only take the 2000iu's once a week, is this still so? But you haven't mentioned how much progesterone you're using. Zinc often cause nausea and vomiting in people, have you tried it after food? Or lessening your dose? It's evident the progesterone is helping, as you say the depression and migraines come back if you drop the amount. It's how to get you over the oestrogen stimulating phase without too much anguish. You say you get instant relief when you apply it, but it comes back shortly afterwards. Have you tried applying it every hour or half hour to see if that helps, just small amounts. The palpitations I explained quite early on, I gave you those papers showing it's oestrogen causing them. But the progesterone is still stimulating it, which doesn't help you. Your doctors told you you were too sensitive to help, possibly low doses of everything is the way to go, very slowly increasing them when you can. I imagine you must have tried that over the years? The ranges I've found for magnesium are from 300mg to 1000mg/day, but I feel the issue with you is vitamin D. Adding magnesium when your vitamin D is low will cause pain. I think you need to get the D up, rather than the magnesium. The magnesium does relax muscles, and a low level does cause palpitations, but it's evident the lack of D is affecting this. Do you have access to a sun bed at all, as this might be a better way to increase your D levels. I don't suppose you've had a chance to get your magnesium and calcium levels checked, I feel sure there's an imbalance there. Calcium causes muscles to contract, plus an excess in ratio to magnesium can cause depression. I wish there was a clear cut answer to your problem, but being as sensitive as you are to nutrients, it seems the only way is to approach it is very slowly. Take care Wray

Oct 18, 2012
in reply to you questions...
by: cecilia

Yes I have had magnesium/calcium checkd, but only through doctors and they say i'm ok!!!.hhmmmm...

Vitamin D is tricky.
I sit on 2000units daily, but when I increase, I get sick again.
I am trying to increase twice a week to see if that is a little easier.
Each time I increase I get horrendeous muscles spasms and jaw clenching so bad I can hardly talk.
But I'm not giving up....

I feel the main problem is the sensitivity to the thyroxine.
Because that causes pernament locked muscles and pain, and it gets worse the more I take, anything I take is really a waste of money.
The spasams from the thyroxine is so severe, I don't think anything else can get through.
The only relief I get from the tightness, is to stop the thyroxine for 2 days.
In those 2 days, I am painfree, my muscles are so relaxed and I am on cloud nine.
I know I am not meant to do that, but it is the only way to keep my sanity!!.
I keep plodding on and trying new options, and I thought progesterone would help, but like everything else, over time, its like I get too much and I have to pull back.
FOr the average person, increasing thyroxine makes the better, for me, I get more tired, more depressed....etc, basically I slip into Graves, even though my bloods say different.
For now, I have stopped the thyroxine to get pain relief........after that, I don't know what I'll do.
Probably just keep taking the vitamin D, magnesium.
Maybe I need a break from the progesteron for a couple of days.
Thanks for your help.I know we have all done all we can and tried different things, but that nasty thyroxine is the main problem.
Off it, I am wonderful, on it I am a mess. without it I will die, on it, I will cry!!!!
take care.

Oct 19, 2012
in reply to you questions...
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Love your rhyme at the end! Your humour is amazing with all you're going through. I had no idea it was the thyroxine causing your muscle spasms. I thought it was the progesterone, magnesium and vitamin D. This is most interesting, as I can't find any evidence you would die without it..... "Because levothyroxine has a very narrow therapeutic index, the margin between overdosing and underdosing can be quite small. Being treated with too much or too little thyroid hormone can lead to a chronic state of (possibly subclinical) hypo- or hyperthyroidism. Several studies show this is not an uncommon occurrence...." Did the treatment actually destroy your entire thyroid, as it seems to me some of it is still working, hence the 'hyperthyroid' symptoms when taking thyroxine. As you're under the care of doctors, I can't interfere with their treatment, but it appears you could do without the thyroxine for some time with no ill affects, and in fact many good ones! During that time you could get your level of vitamin D and progesterone up. There's definitely something wrong with your dosing, as you shouldn't react as you do. Maybe you could confirm with your doctors how long you can go without it, and what in fact could go wrong staying off it. Take care Wray

Oct 19, 2012
by: cecilia

Hi Wray,
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Me not being able to tolerate thyroxine since radioactive iodine, has been the ongoing problem for 10yrs.
For 4 years all I could do was lick a thyroxine tablet once a day and still I would react within 20mins.
Something has gone so very wrong in my system since rdi, and no one knows what.
I was told 3 times to 'get my affairs' in order, because I couldn't take thyroxine and my tsh was up to 130.
Long story, but the short of it is ,I was treated as a 'nut case' and had to do all the research myself to heal myself, but sadly I can't get past the sensitivy of the thyroxine.
I have been off it for 2 days and took half again last night.
This morning my jaw clenching, headache and depression is back.
Everytime I go off thyroxine, I feel wonderful, but the longest I can go without it is 3days, then I start to crash, so I don't go off it very often now.
From all the research I have done, it is obvious I will never get past this pain and depression from the thyroxine.
Admittedly everyday is a huge struggle, but this is my life now.
As far as being under a doctor.....they really don't know what to do with me, so they just let me try to sort it out for myself, and that is what I have been trying to do, but as you can see, I don't get very far before it all turns to mush!!
Hey, no worries. I have run out of ideas now, so I think it's time to put it all to rest.
When I woke this morning, in pain again I realised I cannot beat the thyroxine side effects and must try harder than ever to live with this.
Thank you again and again for all your wonderful help. It has been an interesting journey.
Take care.

Oct 19, 2012
by: cecilia

I meant to explain how I was when I couldn't take the thyroxine at all.
I was bedridded for the 4yrs when I could only lick the thyroxine.
Within 20mins a licking it, I would have fits, vomiting and the most horrendeous headaches, which were there on a pernament basis, so bad that most times I could hardly think for myself.
I could hardly function on a daily basis, but I had to keep going because I had a husband to look after.
This went on, on a daily basis for 4yrs, with the doctors just telling me to go home and take the antidepressants.....which were making me worse.
In the 3rd year, my relationship had turned into a domestic violence one....(verbal) and because I was bascially bedridded, he had power over me.
Long story short, I fought back with all my mite, and have struggled for 2yrs to get onto half a pill of thyroxine.
All the doctors would say was ....'get your affairs in order''
So, as I have had a huge scare, I don't stay off the thyroxine for very long.
I am on my own now, so I can't afford to take the risk of getting that sick again.
My gp panics at my tsh levels, but my specialist says to follow the T4 levels, so that is what I do.
I have had my bloods done and an hourly basics once and the levels go up and down and all over the place.
I was told by my specialist that this is very unusual. So as you can see, I am quite a mystery, but of course that doesn't help me does it? hahaha
I am wondering if by using the progesterone for as long as I did, and being so sensitive to everything, if perhaps it was helping to stimulate the thyroid a little too much, hence the over active symptoms!!!! As this happens quite often when I take things, that is why I have to stop everything, so I can function normally again. I think my elimination is very slow too, and perhaps the liver gets an overload and then Boom!!!! I go to speak..haha
Anyway, thats some of me and I hope it has helped to explain a little more.
I don't think I can do anymore than I am doing.If I didn't need thyroxine, and have all these side effects, I would be on that plane having a holiday, in spain, and making up for all the life I have lost....wheeeeee!!! bye for now.

Oct 19, 2012
i forgot to say
by: cecilia

last might when I used progesterone I felt instant relief, but this morning when I used it, I got the opposite effect.
My neck muscles went into spasam instantly.
This is where things get confusing.
If I don't have thyroxine, I don't get that reaction, as soon as I go back on thyroxine, anything I take, eventually becomes too much for the muscles, and I am in pain again.
confusing ,I know, but hey, don't worry.
We have done out best.
It is just one of those things that can't be sorted.
thanks Wray.
Take care, and thank you for helping so many people out there. You are wonderful. xxx

Oct 20, 2012
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Well thanks for all that, is is becoming clearer, but for one thing. Please could you let me know what you mean by 'crashing' when you stop the thyroxine? Do you become excessively tired? Weak? Because I'm thinking if you could phase things such that you stop the thyroxine for as long as able, take higher amounts of vitamin D, magnesium and progesterone, then stop them while taking the thyroxine. Would that work? This would eventually get the level of the three nutrients up, without causing undue pain etc. I find the whole thing puzzling, I'm glad the doctors do too! Although that doesn't help you, I'm still shocked by your story, and the fact no one will take responsibility for doing it to you. It would be a case of litigation if you lived in the States. Not that I'm for that, but in some instances monetary help is needed. Please read this story here. It might just explain your current predicament, thyroxine. She has nothing good to say about it. She mentions Dysautonomia, which could be your problem too. There's got to be a reason behind your distress, at the moment I'm in the dark. I know nothing about radioactive iodine or why they use such a barbaric treatment. I'm still convinced a lack of vitamin D is behind any thyroid disorder, and I'm sure it could still help you. All 'autoimmune' diseases are low in vitamin D. But how to increase your level without undue stress, it seems slowly is the only option. Bless you for the kind words! Take care Wray

Oct 21, 2012
by: cecilia

Hi Wray, when I say crashing, I mean that my body slowly starts to shut down. I get weaker, can't think/focus migraines and fits.Having said that, that is what happens also , when I try to increase the thyroxine..!!??!!
It is all a puzzle, but I think I have worked out how I got worse.
Not only did they give me too much radioactive iodine, they also pumped me full of antidepressants, one different brand after the other, on a weekly basis.
After 4 months of this, my muscles were in so much pain, I could hardly walk....yes I know they are meant to relax muscles, but in my pain they did the opposite. They also made me homocidal. Then they stopped the antidepressants altogether. Within 2 days of taking me off the antidepressants, I was on the floor with fits, vomiting, extreme anxiety......etc. From research I see that I should have been weaned off the antidepressants. I think that did damage to my central nervous system, and now I have to live with it. I have read the only way to ease this problem, is to go back on the antidepressants.....I have held off doing that for 6yrs, because of how ill I got on them, but there are times I am in so much pain, I wonder if I should take the risk.
I am sure you will see why I am not keen on going back on them.
And I think that is why when I push up the thyroxine, it stimulates the CNS, and all hell breaks loose.
At present, I have stopped the thyroxine and have boosted up the progesteron. I have noticed the progesterone works alot better since I have stopped the thyroxine, but as I said, the longest I can a 4days.
I am doing everything in my power to not go back on ssri's, but after this weekend, I am close to giving in. No one believed me when I told them how much pain I was in with the muscles spasams while I was on them, except my massage lady. She could feel them. It was so bad, my face, eyes, ears and even tongue were in pain. Today I am putting the progesteron on every hour to ease the headache and weeping. thanks Way. Don;t worry too much about all this. I have lived with it for along time now, Yes most weeks are pretty bloody rough, but I get clear days now and then. There are times there is nothing anyone can do, and I feel this is one of them. take care.

Oct 21, 2012
by: cecilia

I see by reading about dysautononmia, that I may have been right in looking at the CNS, and maybe the ssri's were just not the right way to go.
I remember when they put me on them I got such highs that i couldn't keep up with the speed my feet would go. It was quite scary actually.
Maybe I need the Pamelor. By what I have read, it might be the best way to start. If I do go on them, can I still use progesteron cream?
Isn't it great how you picked up what might be the problem, within a few emails, and yet I have been told for 10yrs, its all in my head.
I knew it wasn't, I was sure it was my CNS, but I didn't say, because they already thought I was nuts!!!.
hahaha..........hmmmm......not funny really, but if I don't laugh ,then I will hit someone...ha.

Oct 24, 2012
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia Thanks, it's all becoming much clearer. But what a choice, on it you get pain, muscle spasms, etc, off it you get them too! And the AD's?! Are they mad, and then to make you go cold turkey, they seriously need to try it themselves and see what it does to a person. I'm shocked. I'm delighted the progesterone has helped while off the thyroxine. Maybe you could continue with this idea, and see if it helps. I do hope so. What about adding the vitamin D during those days you're off the thyroxine, would this work too? I'm really concerned about your level, far more than the magnesium. Interestingly progesterone is protective for the CNS. For one thing it increases the myelin sheath surrounding nerves. It also suppresses substance P if enough is used. Substance P is a nociceptive neuropeptide, what a mouthful! It causes amongst other things, pain and nausea, migraines and headaches. Excess substance P inhibits progesterone, but enough progesterone inhibits substance P. Oestrogen is an excitatory, inflammatory hormone, and seems to work with SP, increasing it in some instances. These papers here, here, here here, here here and here are on some of SP's affects and the progesterone effect. SP is released from nerve endings, it appears you have a high level of SP! As if all your nerve endings, all over your body, had been rubbed raw and were continually being stimulated, does this make sense? I'm concerned you want to start the Pamelor, see here. If only you could get your progesterone and vitamin D levels up, I feel sure these would help, and you wouldn't need the AD. Did I give you our page on Anxiety? There are several nutrients which all help. I couldn't have done my guess work without your input, the more you've told me the more it all fits together. It most certainly is not in your head! Take care Wray

Oct 24, 2012
by: cecilia

HI Wray,
While i was reading your email, I just cried and cried. I have been telling the doctors for years what you have just said about it feels like my nerves have been rubbed raw. YOu are the first person who has ever listened and has picked up what I have been trying to say and going through.
ooops, can't see the screen now for the tears...haahah.....Half the time I do actually feel nuts because the pain in my head gets so bad.
I won't try the pamelor after all, because I remember how awful I was on it before. For now I think all I can do is continue doing what Iam doing ,but once a week, stop everything completely.
I seem to need to have this break.
I feel like I get an over load.
The weekend just finised here was filled with extreme pain and depression to the point of wanting to commit myself....horrible, just horrible, but I plod on regardless, because I know there isn't much I can do about it.
For now I am on 2ooounits of vitamin D daily, cut back to 300mgs magnesium, 300/400mg progesterone.
That amount of vitamin d is making me sick, but I am sticking to it for now.
Finger crossed A?
Thanks Wray.

Oct 24, 2012
by: cecilia

someone suggested trying DIM.
I have never heard of it, but did some googling.
Sounds like a good idea.
what are your thoughts on me trying it???

Jan 07, 2013
I'm still here and still struggling.
by: Cecilia

Hi Wray,
I am still struggling with the muscle spasams.
I have been on 200mg/300 all this time, until 3 weeks ago.
I had to cut back, as the pain of the tight muscles has never eased after all this time, and it has got beyond me coping now.
The pain is just too much.
I know when I need the progesterone because when I cut back, the nausea comes on strong again, but when I increase the progesterone, my muscles just lock up completely, and I can hardly move.
I have been like this ever since I started on the progesteron, and it is way over 3 months now.
Vitman D levels are now up to 40, and I take magnesium....500mg daily.
I know by all that you say on here, that I should not cut back on the progesterone, but I don't have a choice now, as the pain, especially in my back and legs, has become too much.
Have you got any suggestions?
I have read and read, but don't see an option, except cutting back on the progesterone.

Jan 08, 2013
I'm still here and still struggling
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia I'm so sorry to hear you're still struggling. I hesitate to ask you to use a great deal more progesterone, i.e. 500mg/day or even more, as I know the cost factor is a problem. Plus I have no idea how much you will need to increase it to help. I wish I had an easy solution for you, but I don't. Can you reduce very slowly to avoid the nausea? I know you need it, but I feel until your vitamin D level is up and your magnesium too, I don't think there will be resolution. I'm delighted the vitamin D level has gone up, as it was so low. I can only hope therein lies the answer. Please let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Jan 11, 2013
Thank you Wray
by: cecilia

I thought you would probably say use more.....but sadly, I cannot afford to buy anymore, at all.
So I will have to cut back, until what I have has gone.
Thank you so very much for all the help you have offered me.
It was lovely having a little relief for awhile.
Was wonderful having less headaches and migraines for a few months.
You have been very kind and generous with your time.
Take care always.

Jan 14, 2013
Thank you Wray
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia This dismays me, so I've asked if we can help further. I've been asked to confirm if your surname is Dingle? As I know we have helped you in the past, but the department in question wanted confirmation they had the right person before doing so. In fact to make doubly sure, please would you give your details, i.e. name, address and email address in the following form found here. Then there can be no mistaking who you are. Take care Wray

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