Help.........am I still not using enough??

by cecilia
(New Zealand)

Hi Wray,

Cecilia from new Zealand here.

I have been on progesterone now for 3 weeks, and this week, I can't stop crying and my anxiety attacks/etc have returned.
My hot flushes started to ease, but this week they are worse than ever.

I can't really tell you have much I am using ,as I can't find out how to measure it (in mgs), but I am using 2 tsps...(can you tell me how many mgs, are in 1 tsp)... twice a day, and sometimes I put more on when my headaches get bad again.

You may not remember, but I have severe hypothyroidism, and have read that progesterone stimulates the thyroid.
I think this may be happening too, as I am finding I am getting my hyperthyoidism symptoms back, so have eased back on thyroxine again.

I realise I am making all my symptoms worse since using progesterone, but I wanted to check with you as to whether I should still be pushing my dosage up even more?????

If so, I will have to borrow more money to put in another order soon, but will wait until I hear back from you.
Having to use so much to feel better, is hard on the old pocket, but I know from all the reading I am doing, that it will be worth it in the end.

I know I have to feel worse to get better, but the old crying, rage and anxiety is taking it's toll.

It took me 3yrs to ease the bad anxiety attacks, so getting it back now, is quite a struggle.

I look forward to reading your reply.
Thank you.


Comments for Help.........am I still not using enough??

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Oct 02, 2012
Hi Cecilia
by: Deborah

Hi Cecilia

I just started Natpro a few months ago, but the one thing that I can say is different now is the anxiety level - almost non-existent.

Some people say they feel better right away or it might take awhile.

That's all I know so far - but you also mentioned that you take two teaspoons. Here's where you can find out how much is in each teaspoon:

Just scroll down towards the bottom of the page and it shows a chart comparing ml and teaspoons.

Keep going - it will get better!

And you might want to check at the library for a book called "The Healing Codes' by Dr. Alex Loyd.

Oct 03, 2012
Confused still
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,
I wrote sometime ago saying that for 9 months I was symptom free using 20mg of natural progestrone twice daily.Well,since the onset of summer my hot flashes have been dreadful,no libido and no lubrication not to mention not sleeping right through the night! So I decided to use a little natural estriol cream vaginally,twice a week,mainly for the libido and lubrication.Libido is still non existent but lubrication has improved a little. We are now well past summer and the hot flasehs continue,but not so bad,but I have big problems sleeping and now feel"jumpy" all day.Do I need to increase the progesterone to compensate for the estriol I´m using.I use half a dose of 0.01% estriol twice a week.Also my hair is falling out rather rapidly!!!
Otherwise I feel ok and have a healthy diet and lots of exercise.
Thanks for your opinion

Oct 05, 2012
Help.........am I still not using enough??
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia It appears Oestrogen Dominance has reared it's ugly head. If you are using 10ml (2tsp), you are getting about 330mg/day progesterone. Progesterone does help the thyroid, oestrogen suppresses it. This is good news. I gave you that paper by Ray Peat, I hope you had a chance to read it. I'm concerned you're not filling in the email field after submitting your comments. As I do answer you, but then get many queries from you with the same request. I can only ask you to increase the amount, or persevere with the 330mg you're using. Only if you feel it is helping you, as I know what an appalling time you've had, and are still having. The last thing I need is for you to suffer more than you already are. It's such a pity about the vitamin D, as that would really help you. But it all takes time to correct any imbalance. Please continue to keep in touch. Take care Wray

Oct 05, 2012
Confused still
by: Wray

Hi there I feel you should stop the estriol, that's what's making you jumpy. The Hair Loss is caused by excess testosterone. Evidently the amount of progesterone you're using is insufficient to suppress it. I've found Hot Flushes need 400mg/day progesterone, sometimes more. Please use the progesterone in your vagina, it's an excellent anti-inflammatory. Best used at night, as the cream can melt out during the day. I have done a page on libido, but the webmaster has not had time to put it on the site. Very interesting findings I've come across, progesterone features very highly in both sexes. More so than I had previously thought. There's not much to be said about oestrogen, or testosterone, which most doctors think it the only thing which affects it! We have many men using progesterone to increase theirs. You might like to read this page here. Progesterone does help sleep, see here, here and here. Vitamin D plays a big role too, see here and here. Please have a test done. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray

Oct 05, 2012
Hi Cecilia
by: Wray

Hi Deborah Thanks for giving Cecilia such encouragement, she needs it as she has been so damaged by the medical profession. I'm delighted to hear your Anxiety has lessened. Take care Wray

Oct 06, 2012
THANKS WRAY
by: Deborah

Hi Wray

Thanks so much for all of your help! I didn't have much to add for Cecelia, but I wanted to give back the little that I could.

Yes, it's amazing that the anxiety is gone. There is a whisper every now and then, but I laugh it off because I know where it's coming from now (which was half the problem right there), and if I feel the need, I just use a little progesterone.

I'm doing vitamin D every day now too (thank you SO MUCH for constantly talking about it) - for the month of August I forced myself out in the sun every day as Dr. Mercola suggests, but now that it's fall it's a lot easier and faster to take the vitamin D spray.

I'm curious if you would have any advice for what I think is my major problem, which is bile after having my gall bladder removed.

I keep thinking that bile is a hormone but that doesn't sound right....? But I thought you'd written somewhere perhaps about bile being affected by progesterone....I may be very confused..sorry if I'm confusing you!

It's just that if I get the slightest bit hungry - and even sometimes when I'm not - the bile starts a storm in my insides and I get extreme cramping and bloating, painful gas, etc etc etc (sorry about TMI).

I'd hoped the progesterone would help with that, somehow...it's been four months of progesterone and the bile problem really hasn't abated.

I know you can't possibly have an answer for every health question : ) but I've wondered if somehow bile and progesterone are connected in any way.

Oh, also - the extreme breast tenderness is gone as well, so two high marks for your progesterone!

Thanks again Wray!


Oct 07, 2012
Thanks everyone for your help
by: Cecilia

I have cut back a little on the amount of Progesterone, and I do feel a little better.
I think I was just getting a tad too much.
My migraines got out of hand.

Now I am using one tsp in the morning and half at night.
This seems to be suiting me at present.
Some days I seem to need a little more, so then i add a small amount at lunchtime.

I guess I will have to be the snail and not the rabbit...hahaha.....go slower, but still get to the finish line.

Take care everyone and thank you again.

Oct 08, 2012
THANKS WRAY
by: Wray

Hi Deborah Bless you for this feed back, it's always so good to hear someone has got better! And of course encouraging for others to hear too. I couldn't agree more about your....."I laugh it off because I know where it's coming from now (which was half the problem right there)". I had terrible anxiety too, I would make myself exhausted with crying. And all time time wondering why, what was causing it, things weren't that bad. Knowing why makes it so much easier. I remember one night I was at a dinner party with friends. Laughing and chatting away, when suddenly the cloud came down. I made an excuse about going to the loo, but went instead to my friends garage and cried my eyes out. She came through to find out why, which of course I couldn't tell her! It finally passed, I repaired the damage and joined them all again. Ah yes, I sound like a broken record about vitamin D! But the evidence is pouring out now about how essential it is to our health. Of all the 100's of studies they've done on progesterone, my best was the one on Traumatic Brain Injury published in 2006. But then in 2009 they did three studies where they added vitamin D to the protocol, and the effect was even greater. This really got my interest up, so I did more research on it, and discovered the two work synergistically. I was so fascinated I did a page on Progesterone and Vitamin D. Apologies if I've given it to you before. No bile isn't a hormone, but a combination of things. I have done a page for our web site but it's not up yet. But this is part of the page......"Bile, a green liquid, is essential for the digestion of fats. It contains cholesterol, bile acids, electrolytes, phospholipids and bilirubin. It emulsifies fats helping to keep cholesterol levels down. It also assists with absorption of the fat soluble vitamins A, D, E and K. Protein, in particular the amino acid taurine, is essential for the production of bile. Without protein, deficiencies occur, followed by illness. Another essential is cholesterol which the liver uses to make bile. Bile also helps to rid the body of up to a half of total cholesterol." So without a gall bladder, tiny amounts are being released which go straight into your duodenum..... "Bile travels down the common hepatic duct from the liver where it is made, through the cystic duct to the gallbladder, where it is stored for future use. In response to food, especially fats and oils, the gallbladder contracts under the influence of a hormone called cholecystokinin made in the duodenum. The contractions force the bile into the common bile duct, which then joins the pancreatic duct, before joining the duodenum. " Continued below.

Oct 08, 2012
THANKS WRAY Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Deborah So I don't think it's bile causing your problem. As you say the problem occurs when hungry, whereas the gall bladder or bile directly from the liver, is only stimulated after food is eaten, particularly fats and oils. Progesterone affects cholesterol output, so I suppose one could say it affects bile! See here. It also helps any inflammation in the gut, see here and here. Something else is causing your problem, but what. The only thing I can think of is excess stomach acid. Although there are so many hormones, enzymes etc in the gut it's difficult to say which is causing it. It could be your blood glucose has dropped too low, and your gut is complaining. Try taking 2000mg to 8000mg/day glutamine. It's a slightly sweet tasting amino acid, the brain can use it for energy in place of glucose. But more importantly it's the only substance the enterocytes which line the gut can use for energy, healing and repair. It's best in powder form, much cheaper too, I think LEF stock it. I take it every day, really helps my energy levels. If you do try it, please let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Oct 08, 2012
Thanks everyone for your help
by: Wray

Hi Cecilia I'm glad you've found a happy medium, it is trial and error. You will find days when you need more and days when you need less. Usually due to stress levels. Pity about the migraines getting worse, this is oestrogen for you. As progesterone is excellent for them, see our page on Migraines. I find your humour amazing, in spite of your troubles! Do keep in touch. Take care Wray

Oct 25, 2012
still researching
by: Deborah

Hi Wray

Thanks for the information and so sorry I took so long to write back!

I've been researching what you said about too much stomach acid - actually, most people who think they have too much acid actually have too little - and I can't say for a certainty that that is what I'm dealing with; all of the sites I've researched seem to be cutting and pasting from each other as far as lists of symptoms, which are too vague.

I'm still trying to find a site or two where someone can give firsthand experiences with it...with their own 'little known' symptoms..

But in the meantime, I have been taking whey protein from One World Whey for about a month or longer, and on the label it says that one serving has 4323 mg. of glutamine.

I've been taking the progesterone since June, the vitamin D since the beginning of August, the whey since September or so - mixed with my own homemade coconut milk.......all of which (with the exception of the vitamin D?) are supposed to heal and help with weight loss....

And yet since I last weighed myself at the end of June, I've gained six pounds despite all of that and good workouts.

All told, in the last two years, I've gained roughly 30 pounds. And I used to be very fit, very small.

And honestly, although that adds to the misery, I'm much more focused on just having a whole day without my stomach hurting and me running to the bathroom multiple times a day.

You'd think I'd be LOSING weight with that kind of activity..... : )

Okay, just wanted to write you back so you'd know I got your last answer (thank you so very much for taking the time and doing the research and for your funny story....wasn't funny at the time I'm sure....)

Oct 26, 2012
still researching
by: Wray

Hi Deborah Not to worry about replying quickly, as least you did, so many don't. I do wonder if they've clicked on the email link, because unless they do they won't get a notification. I agree about many of the sites, they do use identical descriptions. Even on NIH and Medline, they are repeats. I have found this.....' Bile may be forced into the stomach secondary to a weakened valve, the presence of certain drugs including alcohol, or powerful muscular contractions and duodenal spasms.' Maybe this is what's occurring with you, forcing the bile up. But as your bile will be slowly dripping into your duodenum, rather than being dumped from the gallbladder when eating a fatty meal, I find this difficult to believe, but so far that's the only explanation it could be bile. Has anyone done a fungal or bacterial check up? You could try MCT oil in case it is. This is extracted from coconut oil, and kills Candida and some other pathogens. It also helps with weight loss. I've also found this too....' Glucagon manifestations: Hunger, borborygmus, nausea, vomiting, abdominal discomfort, headache' it's under hypoglycaemia, see here. I take it the whey hasn't helped the churning gut? Seems as excellent make too. Incidentally, vitamin D is the number one healer and weight loss nutrient. A lack can cause an untold number of diseases and disorders. These studies are interesting about the weight loss, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. I didn't ask you when the problem with your gut started, as that's often a clue. Particularly if there was a stressful event just prior. I'm baffled by your symptoms, but don't know enough to advise further. Have you tried going to an enterologist? Please let me know if you do discover what it is. Take care Wray

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