High dose D3 and estrogen dominance

by CL
(USA)

Hello Wray, I've been reading your site and have gotten so much sensible information from the posts.

Now, I have a question I can't seem to find an answer to: will high dose vitamin D trigger an episode of estrogen dominance? I am in the process of resolving very severe symptoms of estrogen dominance with transdermal natural progesterone cream (1000mg/d, divided up and applied hourly as per your recommendations). Had excellent results for several weeks--all symptoms reduced to near zero--until I decided to add vitamin D.

My thinking was as follows: I don't spend nearly enough time in the sun to synthesize adequate amounts on my own, and my multivitamin contains only 400IU. So, I took one perlecap of 5000IU vitamin D3 at about 2pm yesterday, and four hours later got a heavy period. What's happening? Could the D3 have stimulated estrogen? Or is it something about the combination of Pg and D?

Help, please! I'd like to make sure I have enough D, but can't bear the return of symptoms as a consequence! In the meantime, it's back to my multivitamin.

Thank you so much, Wray for all the knowledge and comfort you bring to others, including me.

Comments for High dose D3 and estrogen dominance

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Oct 27, 2011
Interested also
by: Anonymous

I'd like to read comments on this also.

Oct 28, 2011
High dose D3 and estrogen dominance
by: Wray

Hi CL Thanks so much for the kind words! I'm fascinated by what's happened to you, which I'm sure you weren't expecting! Firstly, thanks for trusting me by using a high amount of progesterone, and I'm delighted your symptoms have all but gone. Annette found she had to use amounts like this, but she also found the vitamin D boosted her well being. None of us spends enough time in the sun, many authorities suspecting it gives us more than just vitamin D. One survey found we spend 90% of our time indoors now. Back to your query, you say you had a heavy period. Please fill me in, was your period due then, if not when? And are you still getting them regularly, or are you now in Peri-menopause? And apart from the period, do you now have Oestrogen Dominance symptoms back again? I suspect you might not have needed as much progesterone if your vitamin D level was high, as a lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. In fact, although Annette was recovering on the high amounts of progesterone and 5000iu's vitamin D, she wasn't fully right. One of our therapists, see here, suggested she take a booster dose of vitamin D, 100,000 iu's for 6 days. The difference in her well being was huge. I've not come across anyone, or any study, indicating vitamin D would affect progesterone in such a way. It's only when progesterone levels fall at the end of the menstrual cycle, that we bleed. The reason behind this are enzymes called MMP's. They are enzymes that break down protein. They play a role in the breakdown of endometrial tissues at the end of the menstrual cycle. They are stimulated by oestrogen, but progesterone suppresses them. It appears that the vitamin D caused your progesterone to drop, allowing the MMP's to work, hence the bleeding. But why it should do this baffles me. Particularly when vitamin D downregulates MMP's, see here and here. I will look into it, but don't hold out much hope. I've looked on PubMed but can find nothing on it, but if I do I will come back to you. Finally, have you had a vitamin D test done, if not please would you, it might throw some light on it. I've run out of space so will start a new comment below. Take care Wray

Oct 28, 2011
High dose D3 and estrogen dominance
by: Wray

Hi CL I don't know if you have the details, but please see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites for more info. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml and not the 30ng/ml labs and doctors regard as adequate. Although the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, the latest research which I found a few days ago, indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. I can't help but wonder if the vitamin D has kick started your system, and caused an apparent adverse reaction. Much like progesterone does when first using it. Please keep in touch, as I said I'm fascinated by this. Take care Wray

Nov 01, 2011
this fascinates me, too!
by: CL

Hello, Wray, Thank you for your reply. I found it very helpful, and it inspired me to do some literature research, too. I found a recent article, a brief report, actually, from Reinhold Vieth's lab., saying they found evidence for high dose D REDUCING both estradiol and progesterone. (PubMed search, search phrase: vitamin D progesterone) Here's the cit., in case you've not seen it; would love to know what you think.

Cancer Causes Control (2010) March 21:479-483

I found the abstract interesting, but couldn't access the entire article. Might something like this provide a possible explanation for my experience? I wonder if anyone else has had a similar experience?

Nov 03, 2011
D problems too
by: Shirley

I too have trouble taking D....it gives me insomnia...I can get to sleep but wake at 3 or 4 AM, wide awake for 3+ hours, just getting sleepy again when it's time to get up. I kept a detailed log...what I ate, etc and definitely narrowed it down to the D...2000 units from salmon oil (Vital Choice).

I also have a friend who started getting intense hot flashes from the prescribed D from her doctor.
She was through menopause and hot flashes were a thing of the past. She had to quit the D as she could not tolerate the flashes.

I did a fair amount of searching on the web too but this is the first place I've seen this talked about.

I've started the progesterone...hoping it will give me more energy at 66 years old, the only issue I have. But I'm sure I need the D living in the northeast and would like to take it.

Once I'm on the progesterone for a few months I will try the D again...maybe then it will have the effect others get from it...especially the increase in energy and better sleep rather then the insomnia.

I'm hoping others run across this discussion and comment too.

An aside to Wray: have you considered setting up a more traditional message board? I find it so hard to follow the topics in the current format.



Nov 04, 2011
this fascinates me, too!
by: Wray

Hi CL I have read the abstract, thanks. In case others are interested here's the link. It's one of those anomalies I haven't got to the bottom of! It's also known that progesterone rises in winter, well certainly in animals, and drops in summer, the converse of vitamin D. And yet studies done on TBI victims using a combo of vitamin D and progesterone, increased the benefits of progesterone! See here, here and here. Progesterone has also been used effectively in some Cancers, so suggesting it's reduction would improve outcomes leaves much to be explained! Besides which having a progesterone positive cancer shows a far better outcome, than having an oestrogen positive cancer, see here and here. Maybe the duration of the study wasn't long enough, or there were other confounding factors, although they did take most of them into account. So I'm no nearer helping you! Please continue experimenting and keeping in touch, and as I said if I find further info will let you know. Take care Wray

Nov 04, 2011
Interesting article on D3
by: Anonymous

This makes sense to me. If increasing vitamin D3 increases the potency of progesterone, then you would get the initial effects like when you first start the cream and the receptors are "turn on" wouldn't you?
Below is one of the articles I found on internet. The reference is below it.

Hindered Hormones
Vitamin D3 is unusual because it acts like a hormone. It is made from cholesterol and belongs to the same family as the hormones estrogen, progesterone and testosterone. C.W. Randolph, M.D., co-founder of the Natural Hormone Institute explains that vitamin D3 affects the production of these hormones and develops partnerships with them. If you have a vitamin D3 deficiency, estrogen, progesterone and testosterone production drops and these hormones cannot function properly. In women this can trigger symptoms such as low libido, breast tenderness, facial hair, vaginal dryness, belly-centric weight gain, severe PMS or severe hot flashes in those experiencing perimenopause or menopause. In men, this hormonal disruption can cause low libido, moodiness, an increase in body fat, gynecomastia and loss of muscle mass.


Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/80177-symptoms-vitamin-d3-insufficiency/#ixzz1ck2JrD9i

Nov 07, 2011
D problems too
by: Wray

Hi Shirley It's interesting you say the vitamin D is giving you insomnia, as in fact it's very helpful for this. It could well be you are deficient in magnesium, this is a vital co-factor for vitamin D. But it also helps sleep. If there's a magnesium deficiency, it shows up when starting vitamin D. Normally as pain in muscles and joints, but insomnia could be another symptom. The best way to check Mg levels is via a hair mineral analysis, see here. It's low in our soils, so therefore low in our food. You say you are taking 2000iu's from salmon oil. This puzzles me, do they add the vitamin D to the oil, as no vitamin D is found naturally in fish oil. Incidentally the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml and not the 30ng/ml labs and doctors regard as adequate. Maybe you could have a test done? For more info on testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. I do hope you're using sufficient progesterone too, I recommend 100-200mg/day. For more info see our page on Menopause. I appreciate your comment about a more traditional format. I find it hard to follow, as many people ask questions, but remain anonymous. When there are dozens of these on one page, I have no idea who I'm replying to. It helps me hugely having a name as I can then scroll back to see previous queries or answers I've given. The reason we chose this format is it's ease of use. Their are no formalities such as subscribing, or becoming a member, or waiting for permission. And once this is done always having the enter your name and password if you want to make a comment. They also require several people to monitor them. Take care Wray

Nov 07, 2011
Interesting article on D3
by: Wray

Hi there I like your first point, it's not one I had thought of! So simple too. It seems I'll have to do more research and maybe email a few researchers too. The fact that both vitamin D and progesterone originate from the same source fascinates me, in fact I've done a web page on this, not yet on the website. So far I've complied a list of 27 actions they both have within cells that are identical. Both progesterone and vitamin D regulate gene expression, have a positive fundamental effect on cell differentiation and growth, with anti-oxidative and autoimmune anti-inflammatory mechanisms. Both positively effect the nervous system by stimulating neurotrophic factors, quenching oxidative hyperactivity and regulating autoimmune responses. Progesterone is usually regarded as the oldest hormone. But it seems they've ignored the fact that vitamin D is also a hormone. A date of 500 million years was until recently given, but with the discovery of progesterone molecules in the walnut tree in 2010, the date has been pushed back. The researchers speculate that the hormone might be an ancient bio-regulator that evolved billions of years ago, before the appearance of modern plants and animals. The new discovery may change scientific understanding of the evolution and function of progesterone in living things. With further research it wouldn?t be surprising to find that the two hormones evolved from the same source, but split millions of years ago. Following on from your point, it certainly echoes the adverse reactions people get when first using progesterone, but have high levels of oestrogen. I've found the response is more severe then if levels are low. Maybe the same applies to vitamin D, that when taking it, the response is severe if vitamin D levels are low. Vitamin D researchers are now saying the minimum dose should be 10,000iu's per day, and not the 4000-5000iu's that have recently been advised, see here. This abstract here does not give the dose, but in the full paper the obstetricians say ?To be safe, vitamin D administration should be increased to 2,000 IU/day for neonates, 5,000 IU/day for children and 10,000 IU/day for all adults.? Unfortunately the full paper has to be purchased, so I can't give the link to it. I have found women using 400mg/day or more progesterone, rarely get Oestrogen Dominance symptoms. Possibly a 10,000iu/day dose of vitamin D would prevent any adverse reactions. Many thanks for pointing out what I hope is the obvious solution. Take care Wray

Dec 16, 2011
D3 source
by: Shirley

Hi Wray....oops, the D3 was not from fish oil...I get those confused sometimes. I take Mg to bowel tolerance so that is in place. Since posting this I've been taking your Energy Boost...working up to the 4 tsp...afraid of the 5000 IU of D but I've had no problem with it so that is good. Of Of course I've been using the PG (progesterone) cream too so that could be what the problem was with the D before.

As to your format here...I have to save the emails you send out for a couple of weeks and then check back to see your answers, that's more time consuming then being able to read a Yahoo email list or postings in a message board format. I found this posting just by chance when I was looking back at old "new pages" emails.

Maybe you could do a survey like you are for the PG cream packaging. I'm glad to see you're considering a possible change. I like the flip top since many times the cap goes tumbling to the floor in my fumbling hands and the pump...well...I'm guessing when it gets close to empty it would be hard to get out the last precious doses whereas with the soft tube you have now, it's easy to squeeze every last bit of it out!!

Dec 19, 2011
D3 source
by: Wray

Hi Shirley Ah, I'm pleased you weren't relying on fish oil for your vitamin D! Delighted you're taking enough magnesium too. I'm also pleased the vitamin D in the Energy Boost has not worried you so far, but it could be because you're working up to the 4tsp. I do advise this as it can give a mild detox reaction, mostly loose bowels, achey and headachy, until things settle down. It's principally the cysteine in the formula, it's amazing at detoxing. Chelating heavy metals and other toxins, some believing a lack of cysteine causes ageing, see here, here and here. This doesn't surprise me as it's a powerful antioxidant, and oxidative stress is behind most of our diseases. I see you're not clicking on the 'Notify me when others leave comments'. If you do this you will get an email notifying you every time someone makes a comment on that particular page. It only needs to be done once for each page, I do it daily for new comments, it's the only way I know one has been made! I agree with you about the flip top, as I find I drop the lid too, usually it inaccessible places! My only concern is the hinge often breaks, but the new tops are of better construction. I don't like the idea of a pump. I've pointed out to people who request one, that we would have no idea how much it should dispense. For instance some men only need 10mg of progesterone per day, which amounts to 1/3ml of cream, (men often say it would be easier for them!). Whereas we have some women at the other extreme who use 1000mg/day, this uses up half the entire tube in one day. They would get carpel tunnel syndrome pressing the pump so often! The tube is far better as you say, in fact I cut mine open and wipe it clean on my hand! Take care Wray

Dec 19, 2011
Same..
by: Shirley

Thanks for the heads up on the detox effect of the Energy Boost. I'm on my third day of 4 tsp and am definitely feeling an energy boost :o). I'll watch for the detox effects, none so far.

For those who might wonder, I really like the taste...it reminds me of when I'd take the brewer's yeast at the suggestion of Adele Davis back in the 60's. It dissolves very nicely in my almond milk. I have developed a taste over the past few decades for this type of item so others might be challenged at first. But if I continue noticing the increased energy and sense of well being, it will be worth it to you to hold you nose and just take it...that's how I developed a taste for this type of thing over the years.

As to your current format...I subscribe to your emails so this one came in with others as I do check that I want to follow it...I might have missed this one. However, that option is only
available if I make a comment...or am I missing that option when I just read the others?

Thanks so much for your help with this. I've learned so much regardless of the challenges.



Dec 21, 2011
Same..
by: Wray

Hi Shirley I'm delighted you've responded so quickly! I formulated it a few years ago. Partly because so many wrote in saying how tired they were, partly because insulin resistance has become such a problem, but mostly because I'd exhausted myself. I was already working long hours answering queries, but against my better judgement a chef friend persuaded me to do up a new restaurant he was opening. It didn't take much persuasion I might add, as I love doing that sort of thing! It had a Chinese theme, so I roped in all my daughters university friends to help, many studying art as she was. So everything was hand made or painted, we had such fun. But towards the end I could barely talk! Or move. So I thought I had to do something to help myself and others too. Now I find I can't do without it, as I have IR too. I'm pleased you mentioned the taste, as it is strange to some, particularly when all the other formulas have sweeteners, flavourings and colourings in them, masking any odd taste. But then most of then don't taste odd, as the amount of any nutrient is actually tiny. I looked at studies on insulin resistance and the various nutrients used. And then formulated it using the amounts found in the studies as they worked. I'm so pleased you are a fan of Adele Davis, I am too. It was reading her books which set me off on the path I now follow. In fact I took huge amounts of nutrients while pregnant because of her advice. Now I understand about the emails, I was puzzled. They are all automated and will cease after a month. And you are right, the notify me option is only available if you make a comment. I've noticed some put a one liner such as 'I'm interested in this too'. Alternatively we do have a blog on the left hand side which lists all the recent posts. Thanks for the kind words! Take care Wray

Feb 13, 2012
Vit. D3 and more symptoms
by: Tess

I've read several of these questions, but not all. MY experience with the higher instances of estrogen dominance while using the progesterone cream with Vit. D3 is that the D3 CAPSULES or GELCAPS have SOY OIL as the base. If I use the ones with soy, I am countering my balances! I really don't care what the "studies" have concluded, I react adversely to ANY source of soy! I'm very, very sensitive to it and it increases the estrogen dominance (or, as a female ob/gyn told me: "progesterone insufficiency"). Find D3 with rice bran oil, olive oil, or anything besides soy as the base.

Feb 14, 2012
Vit. D3 and more symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Tess Thanks for this info, invaluable. Most people forget to look at the excipients or 'inactive' ingredients. I'm also very against soy. For the benefit of other readers of your tip, please see here for Soy Alert. Take care Wray

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