Long term use of progesterone

by Tom
(CA)

I have been looking for information about long term use of progesterone in men. The stories I have seen report that the benefit wears off after a while.

It is not clear it can be regained by going to higher dosages. The question is why does this happen? Related to this is whether the bodies natural production of progesterone shuts down similar to what happens with testosterone use.

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Long term use of progesterone

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Nov 16, 2011
 Long term use of progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Tom One story doing the rounds of the internet is that long term use saturates the fatty layer. This would cause the effectiveness of the progesterone to drop off. I don't believe it's true, from personal experience of 15 years of use and advising others. Although I have only found one paper to date which backs up my findings, see here. It states…" Despite the low serum progesterone levels achieved with the creams, salivary progesterone levels are very high, indicating that progesterone levels in serum do not necessarily reflect those in tissues." If the fatty tissues were indeed saturated, and little progesterone was available, the study would have found the reverse, i.e. low saliva levels. From Saliva Tests we run, it's evident the progesterone is getting around. The tests are done by a naturopath in the UK, and she does a before and after test for comparison. You'll see levels have risen dramatically, but more to the point the people were feeling well. After all the aim we are all trying to achieve is to feel well. I doubt if this would stand up in a court of law, but it satisfies me! Many things cause progesterone levels to fall, stress, a lack of vitamin D, dark, gloomy days, winter too, large meals due to the increased metabolic clearance rate, a diet high in phytoestrogens. These are known to cause gynaecomastia in men with the rise in oestrogen, see here. And reduce sperm counts in men too, see here. Excess oestrogen causes progesterone levels to drop. I've run out of space so will start a new comment below. Take care Wray
Nov 16, 2011
 Long term use of progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Tom It's impossible to know what was occurring to the men in the cases you read. High amounts of progesterone will shut down the natural production, but the point about using/taking any supplements is to increase a level which is too low. The complexities of why they're too low are immense. I believe stress is a major contributor, so too are the oestrogen mimics which abound now. Although these affect women, men and male animals are affected to a far greater extent. For more info on them see Our Stolen Future. We do have many men using progesterone successfully, but how long they've been using it I don't know. You might be interested to read some of their comments here, here here and here. Take care Wray
Nov 30, 2011
 chronic fatigue, low libido help needed please
by: tiredman

Dear Wray,

How much progesterone does a healthy
man make on average daily?

You mention progesterone sensitizing the
body to oestrogen and therefore needing
to increase the progesterone dosage to
100-200mg daily to overcome these symptoms. Does progesteron then immediately become the dominant hormone or does it take longer for progesterone to become the dominant hormone and oestrogen
symptoms to subside?

I am asking this because I felt the oestrogen
symptoms while taking a small dosage of progesterone cream. I therefore wonder how long
it would take to get rid of those symptoms when
taking a high progesterone dosage.

One more thing I have been thinking about. I
have had low libido for years combined with
CFS. If progesterone lowers oestrogen and also
resensitizes the body to oestrogen, what is the
result?Seems like less oestrogen, but the body is more sensitive to it equals no difference?

My limited knowledge tells me since progesterone decreases estrogen and dht and is also a precursore for testosterone, testosterone should increase?

I tried pregnenolone in the past from 10mg daily
up to 500mg, but it did not really work. Still have adrenal fatigue issues, mild thyroid deficiency symptoms.

There is only one problem I see with supplementing progesterone. Progesterone is supposedly a diuretic and with my low cortisol/aldosterone symptoms, I actually seem to have waterloss issues. Caffeine, alcohol, potassium all make
me pee a lot. Seems my adrenal hormones aren't
increased sufficiently to balance the fluid
retention. Progesterone is the precursor for
cortisol and aldosterone which increase water retention, but at the same time it decreases oestrogen which causes a diuretic effect. Not
sure what the effect would be.

Sorry for the long story. I am interested in
your thinking in this matter.

Thanks for all the information and help.
Dec 02, 2011
 chronic fatigue, low libido help needed please
by: Wray

Hi there I'll try to answer your questions in sequence. Using a high amount of progesterone does ensure Oestrogen Dominance passes quickly, and that progesterone becomes dominant. Although having said that, it can take longer in women who have very high oestrogen levels. This is not normally the case with men. But using low levels of progesterone in both sexes would stimulate oestrogen, as you found. Unfortunately I can't tell you how long it will take, this depends on so many factors. But high stress levels and high oestrogen are confounding factors. Progesterone only stimulates oestrogen if low amounts are used, high amounts do not as progesterone is now dominant. Progesterone once dominant, suppresses excess oestrogen, DHT, see here,
and testosterone, as it raises levels of SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin), see here. This probably sounds alarming, as most men believe that testosterone raises libido. But there's strong evidence that in fact progesterone does this, see here, here, here, here, here and here. We have many men using it for BPH, prostate cancer, low libido and stress, see a few comments here, here here and here. I've never used, or recommended the use of pregnenolone, so can't really comment. But as it's a pre-hormone, it's conversion can go the progesterone route or the DHEA route. But there's no way of telling which. I wouldn't suggest women use it, as it can increase testosterone levels, and an increased cancer risk.
Caffeine, alcohol and potassium are all mild diuretics, so can make anyone pee. Continued below. Take care Wray
Dec 02, 2011
 chronic fatigue, low libido help needed please
by: Wray

Hi there Although progesterone is the precursor to aldosterone, it also uses the same receptor sites, so blocks the action of aldosterone, hence it's diuretic action. In fact it's such a good diuretic over 1200mg/day is now being given via IV transfusion to brain trauma victims to prevent the oedema forming after the injury, see here, here and here. Incidentally over 70% of victims are men. This is an excellent article on 'Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging', see here. Stressed adrenals often need sodium, taking extra salt can help. It can help the thyroid too. As progesterone is the precursor to cortisol, supplementing with it helps, as the adrenals don't have to work so hard to make it. It also lessens the stress response by activating GABA, see here, this again assists the adrenals. Has anyone checked your prolactin levels, this is an inflammatory hormone, plus a high level reduces libido by suppressing dopamine. Dopamine is essential for a normal sexual response, see here, here,here, here, here and here. Progesterone suppresses excess prolactin, and increases dopamine. Finally please have a vitamin D test done. A lack affects the normal functioning of every cell, leading to Insulin Resistance, which causes great tiredness, a malfunctioning thyroid, see here, here and here. Continued below. Take care Wray
Dec 02, 2011
 chronic fatigue, low libido help needed please
by: Wray

Hi there It also affects the adrenals too, see here, here. There's a possibility a lack is involved in chronic fatigue, see here. For more info on testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. And the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray
Dec 07, 2011
 weaker arms less bloodflow, cfs
by: tiredman again

Thanks for your comments wray. Much appreciated.

I have been doing progesterone for about
two weeks now. About 100mg cream daily.
Also started vitamin D yesterday.

One thing that has been negative for me, is
that since starting prog cream, the blood flow
in my arms has decreased. I get lactic acid
symptoms in the arms and they feel less strong.
See this study http://tiny.cc/mvylm
Now this might be oestrogen dominance symptom, but
I have been getting better erections since starting progesterone. So I can't have both at the same time right? Or is it possible to have progesterone dominance in the penis area, but still oestrogen dominance in the arms?

If the body becomes progesterone dominant again for a man, does he still need to take progesterone or is it like a cure?

Another question Wray. Since I started applying
progesterone in the stomach area, I noticed a
sense of relaxation in that area.

One more thing Wray. About vitamin D I just learned that it is important to have sufficient vitamin K, otherwise the vitamin D can't do it's job well and starts to raise serum calcium. The vitamin K makes it possible to bring that calcium to the bones.
Jan 27, 2012
 also had low libido
by: Anonymous

I too have low libido. I decided to use progesterone because the male enhancement products are a lie. An erection means nothing if one doesn't know their underlying conditions. the body needs sunlight, night, nutritional nourishment, and exercise. For me, my sleep wake cycle was off, blood pressure was low, liver and kidney weren't functioning. The only advice I will give is to never use Viagra or any of those things or it'll destroy the body itself and the ability to get an erection naturally. I am speaking from experience. Depression about having low libido will just make it worse. To make a long story short use, sting nettle root with any hormone every 2 to three days. It heals the prostate, binds to SHBG, and clears receptors. Cycle progesterone and use with moderation. Don't watch a lot of television or internet and be active 5 to 6 hours out the day and you will see results.
Jan 28, 2012
 weaker arms less bloodflow, cfs
by: Wray

Hi there I seem to have missed your comment, I do apologise, I have no idea how it occurred. The paper is interesting, but unfortunately they don't say how much progesterone was used, or for how long. It appears it could have been just one application. If so it was far too short a time, and probably too low an amount of progesterone, causing as you suggest, oestrogen dominance in the vascular tissue. This earlier paper reports the opposite, that noradrenaline decreased, here. It was performed on men, but it was oral progesterone which is not the best Delivery system. In this paper it states that MPA (medroxyprogesterone acetate, a synthetic progestin) and DHT caused thromboxane to increase, thromboxane is a vasoconstrictor. Whereas progesterone had the opposite effect, see here. So who does one believe!? Rather off the point, but still in the vascular system, progesterone appears to prevent atherosclerotic progress, see here. This paper shows oestrogen as one culprit in myocardial infarction in men, see here. Finally progesterone reduces thrombin by 10-15%, so preventing clots, see here. I think I gave you this paper on progesterone and erectile dysfunction before, see here. So all in all I think you should stick with the progesterone! I'm delighted you have better erections now, you had only been using it for 2 weeks when you wrote this. Penile tissue is very sensitive to hormones, whereas the arm is not, it could be the progesterone affected this area positively early on. I do hope the weakness in the arms has gone. Progesterone is a vasodilator, which contradicts the paper you gave me, see here. I have another paper which says it's only effective in females, and yet the amount given was only 2mg/kg, whereas this paper gave 100mg/kg. This could explain the relaxation in the stomach area.
Continued below.
Jan 28, 2012
 weaker arms less bloodflow, cfs Part 2
by: Wray

Hi there Vitamin K is an important co-factor for vitamin D, but green leafy veggies have a great deal, and the bacteria in our gut secrete it. I don't bother to mention this, but maybe I should as many don't eat leafy veggies, and probably have dysbiosis in the gut! The most important co-factor is Mg, and that is low in our diets, principally because it's low in most soils. We get far more Ca in our diet because of the dairy we eat, as that's high in it, yet low in Mg. Please take another look through our page on Insulin Resistance, it could be this is causing the continued CFS. Excess oestrogen causes it, decreased sex hormone binding globulin and a lack of vitamin D too. Take care Wray
Jan 28, 2012
 also had low libido
by: Wray

Hi there Thanks so much for reinforcing that the use of drugs is dangerous, and does not address the problem. Nutrients do work, although they do need time to do so. Take care Wray

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