Success With Natpro! But Had a Sudden Wave of Severe Bloating

by Lily
(Las Vegas, NV, USA)

Hi Wray,

Sorry to bother you. You're so wonderful to devote as much time to sufferers like me. God bless you. I've written once previously, but as a quick bio, I am 45 years old and in the throes of peri-menopause, including being estrogen dominant. I never took birth control, have 3 healthy children, and my periods remain very regular. I've always been an active fitness person and eat reasonable well. I do enjoy wine, which I have difficulty minimizing, (I'm sure due to the dopamine effect), but haven’t had soda, chocolate, or coffee in 8 months.

After learning I was estrogen dominant in September, 2011, I removed all parabens & toxic cosmetics, shampoos, conditioners, deodorants, etc., and purchase only hormone-free meat, cheese, and dairy for my in-home dining. But as you know, you can't remove it all in our toxic world. I also began administering 300-400mg of Natpro’s progesterone cream daily, only during my luteal phases. Within a few months, my symptoms were gone, ie: hot flashes, buckets of cyclical night sweating, insomnia, PMS, clotting, extremely heavy periods, and severe bloating/water retention. Woohoo! Success! Thank you Natpro!

After revving up my fitness regimen, I even started to see improvement in removing some subcutaneous belly fat. However, recently I feel absolutely huge again. My body feels exactly like it did before I made any changes, or when I made the mistake last year of taking flaxseed, or phytoestrogens, or black cohosh or something, which worsened my estrogen dominance. I feel like I’ve had a huge oestrogen swell, to the point where I can feel it in my chest/breath - which is hard to describe. Something's definitely different and sudden.

The only thing I changed was adding Omega 3 to my supplement regimen, which includes 10,000iu vitamin D3, vitamin C, B-complex, and DIM. I stopped taking the Omega 3 and the bloating lessened, but I'd also passed my peak and started on my daily progesterone. But even so, I've remained so bloated that I can barely stand it. I’ve resorted to taking water pills, which I don’t want to do since they contain caffeine, but my heartbeat pulsates in my hands and neck, and I feel like I’m going to explode. Given this precursor, I'm very concerned about my next period, which hopefully won't result in a blood transfusion. :) It took a good six months on the progesterone cream to minimize the heavy bleeding/clotting, and I was so thrilled with my results. I certainly don't want to go backwards.

I've just purchased the Amino Acids you recommended for someone else on here with reference to detoxing, but do you think I should use even a little progesterone cream in my follicular phase to keep from exploding? Also, have you ever heard of someone having that reaction to an Omega 3 supplement? Your help is so much appreciated. Thank you, thank you!

Comments for Success With Natpro! But Had a Sudden Wave of Severe Bloating

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Jun 20, 2012
Canada
by: Annette

I would recommend using the cream straight through for a few months maybe increasing the dose to 500 milligrams. Every time you stop and start before you make progesterone the dominant it causes estrogen to rise. I'm sure Wray will agree. Stay on it straight through until all your symptoms are gone.

Jun 21, 2012
Success With Natpro! But Had a Sudden Wave of Severe Bloating
by: Wray

Hi Lily I'm so delighted the Natpro helped you, I would be very surprised it didn't with the amount you used. Thank you for trusting me about that, I think many regard me with great suspicion! You are so right about our toxic world, and to lessen the burden as you're doing is wonderful. But what has caused your setback, it appears as if you've come in contact with oestrogen, but from what. You say you've eliminated as much as you can, and evidently all you were doing worked. Has there been any spraying of crops in your area, gardens being sprayed? Have you recently visited a toxic area? One other thing jumps out, you say you passed your peak, and then started the progesterone. This could be the reason. Oestrogen reaches it's lowest point during bleeding, then does a series of rises and falls in the early part of the follicular phase. Depending on the length of the phase it starts rising round about days 4 to 10, later in long a phase. Slowly at first, then about 50 hours prior to ovulation in all women, it rises exponentially. Progesterone should rise then too, it has nothing to do with ovulation, the surge comes from the brain, see here, here, here and here. If this surge does not take place it leaves oestrogen dominant. Very dominant in fact, as it's a higher peak than that which occurs mid-luteal phase, when it also rises. Many women write in saying they get worse symptoms at ovulation than they do prior to bleeding. By worse I mean seizures, migraines, panic attacks, heart palpitations and asthma attacks. I feel this is what has occurred with you, the timing fits, the oestrogen 'swell' and the chest/breath symptom. This last is interesting to me, as progesterone is essential for normal lung function. It's given to pre-term infants for respiratory distress syndrome, adults too, and both sexes. It expands the lungs, increases carbon dioxide, relaxes the smooth muscle in the lungs, allowing air to flow in. It's excellent for asthma too. I can give you the papers on respiration and asthma should you want them. Any tightness is caused by oestrogen as it constricts smooth muscle. The chances are you didn't ovulate either, which is why you still feel awful. Have you read the page on Peri-menopause? Continued below.

Jun 21, 2012
Success With Natpro! But Had a Sudden Wave of Severe Bloating Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Lily It explains about the anovulatory cycles which increase in frequency as we approach Menopause. You can follow Annette's advise (she's been to hell and back and has used up to 2200mg/day) and use it daily, through any bleeding, for maybe 2-3 months or until symptoms go, no harm will come of this. Or you can start using it at the beginning of that 50 hour pre-ovulatory peak if you wish to continue following your cycle. I would like to help you now, and feel you should increase the amount to 500mg as Annette suggested till you bleed. Then if all is well you can stop it, but start it again before ovulation as above. If the bleeding is heavy, (I don't want you to go for a transfusion or explode!) use it during your period. I'm not sure if I mentioned taking 2000mg/day NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), this inhibits the MMPs responsible for breaking the lining down and causing the heavy bleeding. Progesterone also inhibits them, but taking the NAC too speeds the healing. There's more info about them on our Menstruation page which I did this year. It will probably be amongst the aminos you bought, but you do need about 2000mg/day for the bleeding. Omega 3 can cause bloating, but swelling of tissues I could find nothing. There are a few papers below, one by Ray Peat who has very controversial views about many things, one of which is omega 3, but I find most of what he writes so sound, see here,
here and here. Let me know if what I've said makes sense to you, or if we have to look for other possibilities, I hope not as I've run out of ideas! Bless you for the kind words, I love doing this, most particularly if I have a puzzle such as the one you've presented me with. Take care Wray

Jun 22, 2012
Responding to Annette & Wray
by: Lily

Thank you Annette! I appreciate all the help I can get. After re-examining my usage, I may be doing at least 500mg’s per day already. I go thru a tube in less than 4 days, more like 3 days. Yikes. I noticed in someone else’s posting that you mention taking Calcium D-glucarate. I tried that for about a month or so and didn’t notice any difference. Does this product take a while to assimilate?

Wray, thank you as well. Your detailed response brightened my whole day. Like you, I’m really fascinated by all this stuff and will not rest until I have a good recipe for me. In response to your comments, no crops or gardens have been sprayed locally, but my husband does use Ortho-Home Defense bug killer inside the home occasionally. However, he only does so after I’m in the car and we won’t be back at the house for at least 8 hours. Your thoughts?

Regarding cream application, I thought I was supposed to wait to apply the cream until right after ovulation/beginning on day 15. That’s what I’ve done for several months. I was under the impression that doing so any earlier would hinder or even stop ovulation, and I can use all the ovulatory cycles I can get. But if I understand you correctly, I should be applying the cream sooner than I have been, beginning at the 50 hour pre-ovulatory peak. I may go all the way thru this next cycle, as Annette kindly suggested, and then begin the pre-ovulatory applications.

With reference to NAC, should I wait to assess bleeding (which should be very soon) before I begin taking that? My bleeding’s been outstanding, thanks to Natpro; it was the ridiculous water retention and my heartbeat in my itchy, tight hands that I was most recently suffering with.

I would love the papers related to asthma, as I’ve had this condition since I was a child. I’m reduced to taking Advair (low dose), a corticosteroid. I dread having to take it, because I’m trying to minimize any burdening chemistry in my body, but without it presently, I cannot exercise, and exercise is one of the only maintenance things that actually help me metabolize out extra estrogen, water, not to mention for weight management.

Given the bad experience I had with the Omega-3, I’m afraid to go back to it. Someone suggested taking Krill instead. Do you think I’d have the same experience with that?

Jun 25, 2012
Responding to Annette & Wray
by: Wray

Hi Lily Thanks for the kind words again! You must be using at least 500mg/day if you're going through a tube that fast. And the Ca D-glucarate does take time to kick in, I would suggest give it 3 months if you try it again. The bug spray you use contains a synthetic pyrethrin called Bifenthrin, normally only toxic to insects. But apparently it can affect humans if it's breathed in, contact via the skin appears safe. Please read through the info supplied by PubChem. Progesterone only works as a contraceptive if used about 5-8 days prior to bleeding. It doesn't affect it if used at ovulation or just before. I suggested you tried it just prior to ovulation to prevent what I think is occurring, ie you are not getting the surge of progesterone that you should. Using it daily is another option, and one I suggest often if symptoms are not going when following the cycle. But in your case it seems it's the surge that's missing, so unless you are having problems during the follicular phase, you could continue using it as you have been, but about 2 days earlier. If you've found the progesterone alone has helped the bleeding, then I see no reason to take the NAC, other than for it's antioxidant properties. It's one nutrient I will never stop taking! On the other hand, it's invaluable for the lungs, given for cystic fibrosis, lung cancer, bronchitis, TB etc, it prevents or stops any inflammation. And these are the papers on asthma you asked for here and here. It could be you lacked sufficient progesterone since childhood. It's vital for respiration too, even given to pre-term infants for respiratory distress syndrome, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below.

Jun 25, 2012
Responding to Annette & Wray Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Lily And more here, here and here. Oestrogen, as in contraceptives, causes asthma, see here. But as oestrogen causes inflammation and constriction of smooth muscle, found throughout the lung, I would imagine any form of oestrogen would affect it. I need to find more studies on this! Please have a vitamin D test done, as lack of this causes asthma too, see here, here, here and here. Please see our page on Progesterone and Vitamin D for more info on the synergism between the two. And for more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. I feel for now it would be better not to add anything more to your protocol. Once you've read Ray Peats take on omega 3 you might not want to take it in any form, even krill. Take care Wray

Jun 26, 2012
Soooo Happy With My Results, But Still Tweaking
by: Lily

Thank you once again for your detailed response. I just LOVE reading the articles & scholar-based studies and information. Your website and you are a godsend.

I am thrilled to report that even after the horrible oestrogen swell I had earlier this month, I am having the best period ever (and who ever says that?!) for the 3rd month in a row! All huge clotting and heavy bleeding went away. I can't express enough how utterly relieved I am.

It was so bad 4 months ago that I told my husband, "I'm just gonna have it all ripped out. This is miserable. I'm losing not only me (my personality, my joy, my mind), but my literal lifesource." But thank God for tenacity and Natpro! It just proves once again that natural remedies are best.

To hopefully alleviate that oestregen swell mid-cycle, as you suggested, I will start using the cream from the 50-hour mark, prior to ovulation, which should be day 12. In addition to the extra push in the supplements you suggested, this feels like the right path for me, since each month I've had urges to apply it earlier anyway.

I'm also thinking this should help alleviate the gigantic crash I had at the beginning of this most recent period. I became irrational and extremely agitated, with moments of intense anger. Thankfully it only lasted a few days and the clouds have lifted. I should've probably used the cream throughout, like Annette suggested, but I felt compelled for some reason to maintain my cyclical schedule. But thank God it's been a normal period, bleeding-wise.

I'm excited for the results of this little bit of further tweaking, and that I can use the cream earlier in my cycle. Will report back. Until then, thank you once again. You're a lifesaver!

Jun 28, 2012
Soooo Happy With My Results, But Still Tweaking
by: Wray

Hi Lily Bless you for the kind words! It's important to me that people can make their own informed decision, and not take my word for it. I do wonder how many read the studies though! I'm so delighted your period is the best ever, and yes who says that! It does require perseverance, particularly against all the recommendations given elsewhere, I do have contradictory views. Loosing 'my personality, my joy, my mind' was so like me. I wasn't sure which was the worst symptom amongst them all. I feel my 'early onset senile dementia' was the most scary! Luckily my mind did come back. Natural is always best, after all the nutrients are what the body knows and needs, there is no disease or disorder caused by a deficiency of some drug. You might enjoy looking at this video clip here, Dr Hyman explains it all so well. It's essential to look at the 'whole' body, not as one wit said, the 'hole' in the body. I'm pleased you're opting for starting the progesterone earlier, do let me know if it helps at all. It might be you do need to use it daily for a month or two. Please increase the amount a few days before bleeding, it's evident you are either making excess oestrogen mid-luteal phase, or not enough progesterone, or it's dropping exceptionally fast in comparison to oestrogen. Either way, increasing it should do the trick. Do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Jun 28, 2012
Calcuim d-glucarate
by: Annette Canada

Hi Lily I would recommend only using 200 milligrams of calcium d-glucarate a day and yes it works wonderful. I don't know If you can get ESTROSMART in the states but it wonderful product. Google and read about it. All the best!

Jun 28, 2012
DIM
by: Shari

DIM may be what is causing the bloating, etc. I had a horrible experience with it causing me to feel like I was back at square one with all sorts of problems again. Others have commented that they had also had the same experience. As soon as I stopped it, I went back to feeling better.

Jul 25, 2012
Found a Culprit for My Huge Oestrogen Swell
by: Lily

Thanks Annette. I've added the calcium d-glucarate, but I'm curious why you said to limit it to 200mg per day. If I remember correctly from other posts, they mentioned taking about 2000mg/day.

Hi Shari, thanks for sharing your experience with DIM. I removed it for now and the bloating/water retention have reduced. But as like all this, it's not an exact science, and it's very hard to say what's actually making the most difference. Maybe it's a collective. There's quite a few variables involved and being a quantum system within our bodies, negative and positive results can be challenging to pinpoint as to causality. Anyway, thanks, because I'm all about experimenting, all in an effort to obtain the best recipe for my system.

Thanks again, Wray. I had an epiphany about what may have triggered that oestregen swell I mentioned previously. Just before that time, my husband had an ATV that he was letting run in the garage, since he hadn't used it in a while. Even though I knew it wasn't good for me, I've always liked the smell of gasoline (very weird, I know) and so I stayed in the garage with him, soaking in the fumes. I had no idea how toxic this was, nor what a burden it is on our systems. As I'm sure you knew, gasoline is a HUGE endocrine disrupter and mimics estrogen, not to mention carcinogenic. Eeeeek! If I had known, I would have never breathed in those fumes. Anyway, I won't make that mistake again! But I'm glad the detective in my head wouldn't rest, and triggered me to research gasoline and its effects.

Also, I've done alot of research on the effects of alcohol with relation to estrogen dominance. There's some fantastic studies and papers available which indicate that alcohol raises estrogen levels, and that wine in particular is a phytoestrogen. Egads! So drinking wine is a double-whammy as far as being estrogen dominant is concerned. I was very sad to learn that, but at the same time, this information was vital for me to make the mind-decision-shift necessary to remove this from my lifestyle [sigh]. Now comes the hard part of making that stick, but I can't "un-know" something, so I'm sure I'll be able to do it.

As always, thanks for sharing...and caring.

Jul 26, 2012
Found a Culprit for My Huge Oestrogen Swell
by: Wray

Hi Lily So pleased you found the reason for your 'oestrogen swell'! It's interesting your bloating etc also reduced after stopping the DIM. Shari's too, there is no reference to this possible effect in any paper, but then there is none on the same effect progesterone has when using too low an amount. It does change the ratio of the two oestrogen metabolites, so one can only wonder if it's this which upsets the balance. Is it a question of continuing in the hopes it corrects itself? And yes any petroleum product should be avoided! But almost all our skin care products contain them, particularly the oil phase which is liquid paraffin. It makes them so cheap compared to products using vegetable oils, and that's what's upper most in people's minds, not the quality. And yes alcohol does have profound effects, particularly on women. I did look into it too. Spirits don't contain carbs, whereas wines and beers do. But all alcohols, be they spirits, wines or beers, do have a calorific value, see here, which gets added to the total daily caloric intake. There is a paradox to drinking alcohol. Studies have found it increases appetite prior to a meal, so people tend to eat more, see here. This is probably because it drops blood glucose levels, see here. But it doesn't appear to increase weight gain, certainly in men. One reason given it is increases the metabolic rate, which also causes thermogenesis. There is another paradox here too. Although in men it doesn't appear to affect weight gain, see here, in women it affects hormone levels, see here and here. It decreases progesterone levels and increases androgen levels, both the total testosterone and free testosterone become higher. Testosterone is notorious at increasing visceral fat, which causes abdominal fat gain, see here and here. The lowered progesterone, higher testosterone probably accounts for the increased risk in breast cancer risk among women, see here and here. Continued below.

Jul 26, 2012
Found a Culprit for My Huge Oestrogen Swell Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Lily Higher testosterone is also associated with an increased risk for Insulin Resistance and heart disease, see here. Phytoestrogens are impossible to avoid, even meat contains some! See here, here and here. The main culprits are grains and legumes, particularly grains as most people eat so much in the form of breads, pastries etc. So I don't think you need worry too much about wine, as you won't be getting that much, about 0.05mg/100ml. Better to drink wine and give up food! Take care Wray

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