Progesterone saviour after 5-week bleed.

by Denni
(Trinidad)

Hello Wray. I've spent the last few weeks reading the wealth of information contained on your site, and I must give you my heartfelt thanks for all the effort you put into educating persons about progesterone therapy. My only regret is that I hadn't found your site sooner!

I'm 40 years old, and was diagnosed with PCOS 4 years ago. Looking back, I think I've had PCOS troubles many years before the diagnosis (especially the weight gain). TTC with PCOS is quite frustrating when you simply have no period. This year, I went from no period at all to continuous bleeding for 5 weeks. I've always suspected I was progesterone deficient, but didn't know where to turn. When I wasn't bleeding, the continuous spotting was driving me crazy. My sex life took a severe blow because of this. Out of desperation I resorted to birth control to stop the bleeding, and within hours of taking the first pill, the bleeding stopped. I really didn't want to continue BCP as we're TTC. That was the point when I seriously began considering progesterone cream.

I tried another brand of cream (as I hadn't yet discovered Natpro), and used it for an entire month continuously. Within that time, my asthma improved, edema lessened, and I was in a much better mood. Unfortunately though, my supply ran out as I hadn't bought nearly enough as I needed (was following the usual recommended dosage). I re-started the cream on CD-16, so perhaps I'll actually get a positive ovulation test this month.

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Dec 04, 2012
Progesterone saviour after 5-week bleed
by: Wray

Hi Denni PCOS is a mystery to the medical profession, but as with most of our diseases it's caused by oxidative stress. It is possible to reverse it but large amounts of antioxidants are needed. Plus progesterone of course, as that's always low due to anovulation. I know you live in sunny Trinidad, but please have a vitamin D test done. Most of us spend about 90% of our time indoors now, with no chance of making any. This is critical to ovulation, conception, a successful pregnancy and for the growth of the foetus. Plus the health of the newborn child. We do have a page on Pregnancy and another here. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. I'm relieved you've stopped the Contraceptives, unfortunately they don't contain progesterone, only a progestin or synthetic progesterone, with a radically changed molecule. The pill is the standard drug given to stop bleeding, but progesterone does it too. Although I've found amounts of 400mg/day and more are needed. We have more info on our page about Menstruation. Progesterone can act as a contraceptive if used before ovulation. I'm delighted the progesterone helped the asthma, oedema etc, it should, see here and here. Continued below

Dec 04, 2012
Progesterone saviour after 5-week bleed Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Denni Plus these comments here. And our page on Traumatic Brain Injury about oedema. You say you don't bleed, so I'm confused about your 'CD16', or are you using it following an arbitrary cycle? Many thanks for the kind words! When I first started progesterone in 1996 there was no info on the web, as there was no web! Well it was very rudimentary. Only books, and I was lucky enough to read one that mentioned progesterone. It changed my life remarkably, I began giving talks and of course was getting questions I couldn't answer. So I bought all the 'progesterone' books and more. In 1998 we started our website, also very rudimentary back then. Now I rarely read a book, as I'm always searching for more info, luckily I love it! Take care Wray

Dec 05, 2012
Wray...
by: Denni

Hi Wray. Thanks for replying to my post. Before coming across your site I never understood the role of antioxidants in treating PCOS. The info made me resurrect some astaxanthin I had forgotten about. I finished off those tablets, and was wondering if I should purchase some more. Do you have any views on astaxanthin?

Yes, it's quite sunny here but everyone seeks shelter whenever they can. The heat is really too much, plus we usually cover up anyways. I purchased a strong vitamin D supplement and will start taking it as soon as it arrives. I also bought some NAC, and have one more bottle of DIM to finish off.

Sorry about confusing you with my mentioning CD-16. Let me explain. My cycle is erratic, so I can go for long periods with no period. Other times, I might even have three normal periods in a row. There's no predicting what kind of cycle I'm in. The 5-week bleed I had, happened about three months ago. After that, I took the birth control for one month (28 days) and had the withdrawal bleed after that. Counting from that withdrawal bleed, I started the progesterone cream from CD-7 to do a suppression cycle (no ovulation). A few days after my cream ran out, my period started on CD-26. That brings me to this present cycle, when I started the cream on CD-16.

I know that using the progesterone cream too early will suppress ovulation, so I started it later. I'm just monitoring myself with the ovulation predictors to see if I get a positive test. The line has gotten darker, but not quite there yet.

Dec 06, 2012
Wray...
by: Wray

Hi Denni It's only very recently that papers are coming out within many medical disciplines, that the cause of a disease appears to be oxidative stress, i.e. a lack of antioxidants. Many of these papers are linking it specifically to a lack of vitamin D. Even depression is being thought of as an inflammatory problem, obesity too. It stands to reason too, if a cell is not getting the required nutrients it's bound to malfunction. I feel most of the so called 'autommune' diseases will eventually come be be realised as an oxidative stress problem. All of them are low in vitamin D, many have high oestrogen levels and low progesterone. This also stands to reason too, as far more women than men get autoimmune diseases, in some cases it's a 9:1 ratio. All our modern diseases have escalated in the last 50 odd years, some reaching epidemic proportions. With the advent of TV and computers we are now spending increasing amounts of time indoors. Therefore the most important antioxidant, vitamin D, is not being made. Astaxanthin is an excellent antioxidant, but hugely expensive! Levels of 300-1500mg/day were given in studies. These are a few papers here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. I tend to rely on the amino acids, many of which are powerful antioxidants and far cheaper, plus of course vitamin D. I had a feeling the heat and humidity would drive people inside on Trinidad! thanks for clearing up my confusion about your cycle, now it makes sense. I feel you need to use progesterone daily, through any bleeding for about 2-3 months. This would ensure any excess testosterone and oestrogen would be suppressed, and progesterone becomes dominant. Plus taking the antioxidants. You might find the mini microscope a cheaper option than the ovulation predictors. Take care Wray

Dec 10, 2012
Wray
by: Denni

Thanks for the information on astaxanthin ... very interesting indeed. I think when my current bottle of fish oil is done, I'll switch to Krill oil (which contains astaxanthin). Do you think that's a good idea? I started taking B-complex (in addition to a multivitamin), and will begin vitamin D supplementation today when I receive my order.

I was also wondering about royal jelly, which I've been taking consistently for many months. I know they say it's helpful for egg health, but do you know if it has any effect on PCOS? At this point, I really don't want to take anything to aggravate estrogen dominance.

I have also purchased some amino acids (using your PCO formula as a guide), which I will begin using as soon as it arrives. I will follow your advice of continuous use of the progesterone cream for a few months (my current dose is 140 grams daily). I want to switch to Natpro when my current brand is finished. So far, I haven't gotten a positive OPK, and I'm doubtful whether I will anyway. I use the OPK tests as I had bought them in bulk a while ago. I do have a microscope, but it has been out of use for so long that the battery went dead. I hope it still works after replacing the dead battery.

Dec 11, 2012
Wray
by: Wray

Hi Denni The switch to krill would cover both the omega 3 and astaxanthin, so yes a good idea. Glad you're taking the B's and soon the D, but please have a test done. I wish I could advise on the royal jelly, all I know is it's meant to be good! The only way you'd be able to tell if it's aggravating the symptoms or not would be to stop it. Pleased you're going to try the aminos, but don't forget the inositol, that's probably one of the most important nutrients to take for PCOS. And in the studies done on it, all used amounts of 4000mg/day, plus folic acid. Please don't be doubtful, you're a long way off Menopause. Take care Wray

Dec 15, 2012
All set...
by: Denni

I've received all my supplies, and will be starting from today. I didn't forget the inositol. I purchased the bulk powder instead of capsules. The arginine has a really bad taste though, but I'll live through it. LOL

I have to find some system to keep track of all these supplements.:)

Dec 17, 2012
All set...
by: Wray

Hi Denni Oh good, inositol is so important. Powder is far cheaper too, although some do have an odd taste! You could always just get the complex we have, all the doses are based on studies done using only single nutrients. The complex contains all of the successful nutrients in one. Plus the necessary co-factors and a few other important nutrients like the milk thistle. That way you won't have to keep track of anything! Do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Dec 27, 2012
Wray
by: Denni

Hello Wray. There's something else I neglected to mention. Since starting using progesterone cream, I've seen a great improvement in my acne flare ups. I thought I'd have to live with acne for the rest of my life, despite reaching adulthood. I'm amazed that I haven't had a single pimple over the past few months!

I'm assuming that this is because the treatment is working, and androgen production is being suppressed. I'm wondering if I can also assume that my estrogen dominance is also being reduced.

Dec 29, 2012
Wray
by: Wray

Hi Denni You didn't mention Acne in your previous posts, progesterone can help, it delights me it's helped you. High testosterone initiates acne. If bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) testosterone becomes inactive, progesterone raises levels of SHBG, see here, so preventing the rise of free testosterone. SHBG drops if sugars are eaten, even those found in all grains, legumes, processed milk and sweet starchy fruits and vegetables. Fructose, sucrose and glucose, reduce SHBG by 80, 50 and 40% respectively, see here. Thereby allowing testosterone to rise. It's best to avoid all the foods and sugars mentioned. Wine and beers contain carbs, so it's best to avoid those too. Sugars and large meals also drop progesterone levels, see here. Plus insulin drops levels too, see here. This means SHBG also drops, another vicious cycle. Something most of us don't know, but women make more testosterone than oestrogen each month, but luckily most of it is converted into oestrogen by the enzyme aromatase, see.........
Cholesterol → Pregnenolone → Progesterone → 17-OH-Progesterone → Androstenedione → Testosterone → Oestrone ⇄ Oestradiol → Oestriol (also Oestrone → Oestriol)
This is an excellent chart by Genova Diagnostics showing the pathway. So your assumption is correct, the lower the testosterone the lower the oestrogen. Would love to hear of any other developments. take care Wray

Aug 20, 2013
Update/Question
by: Denni

Hi Wray. Since my last post, I've been taking the suggested supplements (NAC, taurine etc.) I've also been supplementing with vitamin D, progesterone, and kelp (for the iodine).

Just wanted to let you know that I've just entered my fourth normal cycle, complete with positive ovulation tests. When I was younger, I had a 26-day cycle. Seems like I've gone back to that now, and I'm glad.

I was wondering whether I should continue taking the high dose of NAC, or whether it would be wise to reduce the dosage. I know antioxidants are very important.

Aug 21, 2013
Update/Question
by: Wray

Hi Denni Good to hear from you again. So delighted to hear you've responded to everything, and that your cycle has normalised, and positive ovulation too. I always find it so interesting that the cycle will adjust itself in time. Obviously your normal length is 26 days. I don't know if you are using the progesterone following the cycle, but ovulation should occur ±day12 which is when you should use it. I don't know how much NAC you're taking, but if all is well then certainly begin reducing it slowly. It's one of the nutrients I never fail to take, it's so invaluable. So see how you get on and decide whether you can stop it eventually. Or like me continue to take it. Take care Wray

Aug 21, 2013
Wray
by: Denni

The NAC dosage I currently take is 2000mg daily. But since you say you take it all the time, I think I will also continue with it (along with B-complex). I'll also continue with the vitamin D (10,000IU daily).

And yes, I still use the progesterone but only start once I get the positive OPK. Looking back at my notes, I usually get a positive OPK around Day 10 - Day 13 of my cycle. We have just begun TTC again, and hopefully I'll have success dealing with my tubal issues. I'm working on it with natural therapies that others have had success with. I know it will take time, but I'm not giving up yet.

Thanks again, Wray.

Aug 22, 2013
Wray
by: Wray

Hi Denni Oh yes, that's about the amount I take. 500mg in a complex we have, and then the rest goes in my water bottle which I drink all day. Glad you're taking 10,000iu vitamin D, and please don't forget the taurine. So important for uterine health, and for the growth of a foetus. Do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

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