Progesterone and TRT for men

by Greg
(Big Pine, CA)

DHT levels in men can cause lots of problems. if you are a man taking transdermal testosterone, your DHT levels can go right through the roof! If your DHT levels are low to begin with, this might be of benefit, but I'll bet there are more men out there with high DHT than low. In my case, just 4 pumps a day of Androgel is causing my DHT levels to go out of range on the high side. My hair is coming out, and I'll bet DHT plays some kind of role in BPH. I am trying Natpro in hopes of bringing the DHT down without having to resort to finasteride. If you were to sell your progesterone with a pre metered pump top, this would help us guys know exactly how much we are actually getting. If you are a guy, just a word of caution: Do not apply transdermal testosterone to the scrotum! this area is especially sensitive to DHT conversion and i guarantee you your DHT levels will skyrocket. I am currently also taking 1/4 arimidex EOD to bring estradiol down into an acceptable range. your thoughts on how all this works is appreciated.

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Progesterone and TRT for men

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Dec 16, 2011
 calcium d-glucarate
by: Anonymous

You might want to consider going on calcium d-glucarate. It helps remove used hormones and toxins. If you do go on it you should also go on probiotics.
Dec 17, 2011
 Progesterone and TRT for men
by: Wray

Hi Greg You don't say why you need the testosterone, so I'm taking a guess in my reply. If it's for a reduced libido, you might consider using just the progesterone. There's reason to believe that it's progesterone that increases it, and not testosterone, see here. These are a few more papers on progesterone, see here, here, here, here, here and here. You'll find your hair won't fall out either. Progesterone is a natural 5-alpha reductase inhibitor, but with none of the side effects of finasteride, see here. It will also suppress any excess oestrogen you have, far safer than arimidex. I assume you are taking this to prevent gynecomastia forming from using the testosterone? You might like to see our page on Man Boobs. It alarms me all the drugs needed to combat the effects of using testosterone. FSH stimulates the enzyme aromatase in both men and women. Progesterone inhibits FHS. Giving an aromatase inhibitor to prevent oestrogen production, is rather like mopping up water while leaving the tap running. Why not turn off the tap? These are a few papers on progesterone, aromatase and oestrogen, see here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below.
Dec 17, 2011
 Progesterone and TRT for men Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Greg On the libido side, if I'm on the right track, has anyone checked your prolactin levels? Or dopamine? Prolactin suppresses dopamine which is needed for a normal sexual response, see here, here,here, here, here and here. Progesterone suppresses excess prolactin, see here, here, here, here, here,
here, here here and here. The amino acid tyrosine is the precursor to dopamine, if stressed levels of tyrosine drop, hence the drop in dopamine. Supplementing with tyrosine suppresses prolactin if high and increases dopamine. The rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway. Please have a vitamin D test done, levels are low in most of us. It's needed by every cell to function normally, it's also a potent antioxidant. It's low in all cancers, including prostate cancer. Levels fall during winter, but so do testosterone levels, when were yours checked? Vitamin D deficient men have low testosterone, supplementing increases their level of testosterone, see here and here. It seems a far safer course to take vitamin D, it's also needed for the anagen phase of hair growth. Continued below.
Dec 17, 2011
 Progesterone and TRT for men
by: Wray

Hi Greg For more info on levels, testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. And the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. I've also seen a query from you via our admin contact form. I hear your point, more info is needed for men. Unfortunately there is only me, as it is I battle to keep up with all that's needed to be done. I've given you one page on men, there is another, although far more work is needed on it, but there are comments from other men you might like to look through, see here. I also understand your request for a pump action with a measured amount. I've thought about this, as it does make things easier, but for one fact. How much should it dispense. Some men need only 10mg/day, this would be 1/3ml of cream, some need 100mg/day which requires 3ml of cream. But at the other extreme we have women using 1000mg/day, which uses 1/2 of the entire tube in one day. Talking of ultra high amounts, there's no harm if men use these too. TBI victims are given over 1200mg/day via IV transfusion to prevent oedema and inflammation occurring, see here, here and here. Over 70% of victims are men. I hope I've given you the correct papers, it appears you don't have BPH or cancer, I'm sure you would have mentioned it. Take care Wray
Feb 18, 2012
 Progesterone seems to help me
by: David G. Mills

I am 61 and on androgel (topical testosterone) because I have very low luteinizing hormone. Before androgel I was taking testosterone shots. I quikly developed both gynocomastia (very sore tits) and my scrotal sack shrank and my testicles were often ice cold on the shots and I still had the same problems to a lesser extent on the androgel.

Taking progesterone cream stopped those two adverse side effects almost instantly. Literally overnight. So since I will be taking testosterone for the rest of my life, I will be taking progesterone with it.

Initially I did have severe itching from taking progesterone cream and so I had to decrease the amount I was taking initially and gradually build up the dosage over a month. After a couple of months I still itch some but it is mild and gradually reducing.

I also have a slightly enlarged prostate which has caused me difficulty in urinating for many years. That condition seems to be gradually improving with progesterone as well, so we shall see what happens long term.

I am also curious to see if progesterone helps with hair loss. I have a pretty good head of hair for my age but nothing like it once was. I have read on a blog somewhere where a guy reported that after eight months a significant amount of his hair returned after being lost. So far I can't tell much improvement in the hair loss area but if it takes 8 months to get noticeable results I would still have about 5 months to go.
Feb 19, 2012
 Progesterone seems to help me
by: Wray

Hi David There still seems some controversy about giving men testosterone. There are many papers about this on our page Man Boobs. It doesn't appear dangerous in terms of prostate health, but does cause other adverse side effects, as you've noticed. Why not try just using the progesterone for a while, and no testosterone. Many men have benefitted with this only, see here, here here, here, here, here and here. The itch could be due to the other ingredients in the cream, have you checked them? Progesterone is excellent for BPH, as you'll see from one of the comments made. Progesterone has had some success with hair loss, but not in all men. I would suggest you have a vitamin D test done. Not only is this vital for the anagen phase of hair growth, but it does raise testosterone levels, see here and here. For more info on vitamin D levels, testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray
Feb 19, 2012
 Progesterone and Testosterone supplementation
by: David G. Mills

In my case, which I know is not usually the case with low testosterone, I produce no luteinizing hormone. Without the luteinizing hormone I don't see how I could produce any testosterone with progesterone supplementation alone and the testosterone therapy has done many favorable things.

Testosterone has greatly increased my strength, my libido, my stamina, muscle weakness and pain, and has helped with pain from old sports injuries and surgeries. It has been particularly helpful with my back which has really bothered me since low back surgery (disc removal) 12 years ago. The higher the dosage of testosterone, the better my back feels, but I have to balance that with the side effects, which progesterone seems to greatly reduce.

I think I need them both unless there are some studies which indicate that low progesterone is the reason for low lutenizing hormone. And my low lutenizing hormoney could be due to low stimulating hormones from the hypothalmus causing the pituitary to produce low amounts of lutenizing hormone. I was tested for a pituitary tumor and an MRI showed none. So testosterone therapy was the easy answer.

I have also been an Atkins dieter for 15 years so I think my estrogen levels are not as bad as they could be, but they were still pretty bad. I was put on testosterone shots (200mg per week -- twice the usual dose) and I quickly got better. But at those levels I got acne and the other side effects of shrunhen scrotal sac and gynocomastia.

I also had low vitamin D and have been replacing it at 5000 units per day, but I am not consistent with this so I will try to do better.

Initially I used progesterone cream but have switched to a 100% water based gel which seems to cause me less itching. But maybe I could just be getting used to progesterone. I haven't gone back to creams to see if they make me itch more.
Feb 20, 2012
 Progesterone and Testosterone supplementation
by: Wray

Hi David I'm delighted the testosterone has helped, and that progesterone has negated the adverse side effects. It's interesting you ask about progesterone stimulating LH, it certainly does in females, "The newly synthesized neuroprogesterone acts on estradiol- induced progesterone receptors in nearby neurons to initiate the LH surge", see here and here. Another study says "One of the most dramatic differences involves estrogen positive feedback, which leads to ovulation. A crucial feature of this positive feedback is the ability of estradiol to facilitate progesterone synthesis in female hypothalamic astrocytes. Conversely, estradiol fails to elevate hypothalamic progesterone levels in male rodents, which lack the estrogen positive feedback-induced luteinizing hormone (LH) surge." A later study found it wasn't the oestrogen feedback that induced the LH surge, but progesterone, see here. It seems progesterone might do the same for men, see here. Unfortunately a search has revealed nothing more. Probably because progesterone is firmly fixed in most minds as a female sex hormone, when it's neither. Hence the dearth of studies in men, apart from the ongoing TBI studies. As a follower of the Atkins diet, you might also be interested in the Paleo diet. There's a link to Dr Cordain's site on our Nutrition page. Incidentally oestradiol can detach dihydrotestosterone (DHT) from its binding sites on SHBG, thus making it more bioavailable. Dropping testosterone, and rising oestrogen are often checked in men, but progesterone…never! It would be interesting to find if in fact progesterone levels were dropping too, as it effectively suppresses oestrogen. Plus it does stimulate testosterone synthesis according to that study. And hCG was that checked, as this stimulates aromatase activity? Impaired glucose tolerance also reduces testosterone levels. I take it they did check your prolactin levels, as excess prolactin suppresses the pituitary secretion of dopamine. Continued below.
Feb 20, 2012
 Progesterone and Testosterone supplementation Part 2
by: Wray

Hi David Dopamine is essential for a normal sexual response, see here, here, here, here, here and here. But the rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway. Re the gel you're now using, one study found the emulsion type base had a higher peak plasma concentration than the gels, see here. So if the gel doesn't work, you can always switch back again. Take care Wray
Feb 20, 2012
 Saw the doctor today
by: David G. Mills

Very typical MD and told him what I was doing. Of course, since he only practices main stream medicine (his term) and could find no hint that main stream medicine suggests usage of progesterone in men, he would not approve of my usage of it but would not insist I stop either since I told him it had helped with testosterone side effects.

It was time to do my normal bloodwork so he went ahead and added a testosterone level check as well as a luteinizing hormone check. Prior to taking testosterone my luteinizing hormone level was 2 and after taking testosterone, it had decreased tenfold to .2. So I will be curious to see what happens to the level after having had progesterone for a couple of months.
Feb 22, 2012
 Saw the doctor today
by: Wray

Hi David There are so few studies done solely on men or male animals, but as for men using it… the sky will fall down when main stream medicine suggests it to a man! As it is women have an uphill struggle, even though it's regarded as a female hormone. I'm a trifle puzzled by something, as earlier you said you didn't make LH, but now you say your level was 2. This falls into the normal range of 1.24-7.8 IU/L, see WebMD. It's now dropped due to the TRT, which it should do. I will be interested to hear if it's risen, although it might remain suppressed by the TRT. Take care Wray
Feb 22, 2012
 My LH
by: Anonymous

On the scale on my lab studies I was at the very bottom of normal, which I think on that scale was 2.0. But I am curious to see if LH changes while on progesterone even if on testosterone therapy.
Feb 23, 2012
 My LH
by: Wray

Hi David Ah I see now, the reference I used was from WebMD. For some reason Medline don't give reference ranges for men, only women. Do let me know the results, I'm intrigued. Take care Wray
Mar 03, 2012
 LH and Progesterone update
by: Anonymous

My LH was 1.8. When I was first tested before testosterone therapy it was 2.1. Then with a huge amount of testosterone (200mg per week by shot) it went to less than .1 and my testosterone level shot to over 1000. So after being on Androgel for six plus months and Progesterone for two plus months, my LH has come back to where it was when I started, but that was too low to produce enough testosterone.

I am also on statins (Crestor) for cholesterol and unfortunately (???) my cholesterol went up after being on progesterone -- from 165 to 216. But the good news is that my ratio got even better and went from 3.8 to 3.3. HDL went from 43 to 65. On the downside VLDL went from 17 to 22 and LDL from 105 to 129. Still happy though because my HDL has never been this high and the last time I had a ratio this good was in 8/2008.

Prostate seems to be improving and I swear I am regrowing hair.

Been taking two pumps of gel per day, which may be higher than Dr. Lee recommended, but since I am taking it for symptoms, I thought I needed to up the dose. But truth be known, I really don't know what two pumps per day of water based gel equates to. 4.4oz bottle and 500 mg per oz. But what each pump equates to the bottle does not say.
Mar 03, 2012
 My dosage
by: Anonymous

Went to the website of the gel I am using and according to it a pump is 17mg so I have been taking 34 mg per day.
Mar 04, 2012
 LH and Progesterone update
by: Wray

Hi David Thanks so much for coming back to me. I'm delighted your LH has risen, which it should have done, given the info in those papers I gave you. Here's hoping it rises high enough to increase testosterone levels. We have many men using amounts of progesterone far higher that that recommend by Dr Lee, up to 400mg/day in one case. I'm also delighted your HDL:LDL ratio has improved. Have you had a vitamin D test done yet? I gave you those papers on how it increases testosterone, but at the time I gave them to you, you didn't mention being on statins. It appears cholesterol levels are directly related to vitamin D levels. The lower the vitamin D the higher the cholesterol, please have a test. Ironically it appears the statins raise vitamin D slightly, which is one reason given for why they work, see here and here. You might like to read these papers too, see here, here,here and here. Plus these here and here. Take care Wray
Mar 04, 2012
 Vitamin D
by: David G. Mills

My Vitamin D was 23.7. A little low so I have been taking more of it. In the summer I get plenty of sunshine (I live in Memphis, TN) so my vitamin D levels are not as bad then. The days are getting longer now and the weather is getting better so hopefully soon my vitamin D will get back to better levels. I have been taking 5000 units daily so hopefully that will help as well.
Mar 05, 2012
 Vitamin D
by: Wray

Hi David 23.7ng/ml is very low! Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml and not the 30ng/ml or most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day. Please read through those sites I gave you, and try to get your vitamin D level up to the 100ng/ml level. I'm sure that will make a world of difference to you. Memphis lies 35 degrees north, just within the 37 degree parallel of getting enough sun in summer. Although some say 33 degrees north is the line we should take. It's not so much the sun and feeling it on our skin, but the angle in arrives on earth, if too far north it's too oblique to make any. The best indication of making vitamin D, is if your shadow is shorter than you are when in the sun. But I'm pleased you're taking 5000iu's, although it will take some time to rise on that level. Take care Wray

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