Persevere with dosage or increase dosage?

by Brittany
(Virginia)

Hi Wray,

Thanks very much for your wonderful site. I was on Yaz for nearly 3 years before stopping because of terrible anxiety and mood swings. The few benefits Yaz gave me: clear skin, no periods, and gorgeous thick hair. About a year after stopping Yaz, my hair started falling out and getting thinner. It's continued for nearly two years now (not only head hair, but arms, legs, everywhere the hair has become finer and thinner! Even the fuzz on my face became finer!). I'm 30 years old and my hair looks like that of an 80-year-old (texture of cotton candy). After finding your site, I decided to try bio-identical progesterone cream last month. Like instructed, I only used on the last 14 days of my cycle (I have a 28 day cycle). I used 120 mg daily (divided into 2 doses). I got many of the estrogen dominant symptoms you say can occur - bad cramping (I usually don't have bad cramps), emotional, water retention. I've put on about 6 pounds that I cannot lose, despite exercise and diet, and the texture of my hair has gotten even finer. You say if estrogen symptoms occur to increase the dosage and persevere with symptoms...but I'm wondering if I should just persevere with this dosage, 120 mg, since it's within the 100-200mg dose you recommend, and see if symptoms resolve before upping the dose.

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Mar 20, 2012
Persevere with dosage or increase dosage?
by: Wray

Hi Brittany Bless you for the kind words about the site! The 100-200mg/day is only a guide line, I'm beginning to think I should tell everyone to use 400mg/day or more. Amounts this high prevent any oestrogen dominance occurring, but I feel I'd put everyone off. No one else recommends anywhere near the amounts I suggest, so asking them to use even more I'd get written off as if I was some sort a nut case! Dr Lee recommended 20-40mg/day, all his patients got oestrogen dominance, in fact he coined the term. Dr Dalton's patients never got it, because she used amounts well in excess of 200mg/day. Often 400mg, 800mg or 2400mg for post natal psychosis. The choice is yours, you can try sticking it out, although I see no point in suffering needlessly. In which case you could increase it. I'm relieved you've stopped the Contraceptives, all the drug based ones have the potential to harm. Plus they prevent any progesterone from being made, hence your anxiety and mood swings. I'm pleased you're using the progesterone in the last 14 days, all too often women are told to start it before ovulation. The idea is to mimic the cycle, ie to use it only during the luteal phase. We do have a page on Hair Loss, so many things can cause this. Mostly it's related to excess androgens, which also cause skin problems, including Acne. The immediate weight gain you've experienced is water retention. This is caused by oestrogen, see here, here, here and here. Progesterone is the best diuretic there is, it's now used to prevent the inflammation and oedema that occurs during a Traumatic Brain Injury. To loose that water weight, you would need to use more progesterone, no amount of exercise or diet is going to change it. Take care Wray

Mar 20, 2012
To:Wray
by: Annette Canada

Hi Wray funny you should say that amount the dosage. I tell the women here to start at 400 milligrams and it seems to bypass a lot of difficulties. I'm glad you brought it up, I was going to share that with you. Now the hardest part is convincing women to start at that amount, oh how easier it would be for them!!! Your are my sunshine!!!

Mar 21, 2012
To:Wray
by: Wray

Hi Annette You do make me laugh, thanks for saying that!! I love all your comments and words of encouragement, but you are so right. I'm sometimes in despair trying to get over to people it's safe, it's been used for over 60 years with no adverse side effects, that too little will only make matters worse, etc, etc, etc!!! On another page I was accused of just trying to push my product by telling people to use dangerously high amounts. As you know over 50% of the people who come to this site use other brands, it matters not which they use, provided they use enough! By the way I'm doing what you do, using 800-1000mg/day. I react to carbs, they blow me up, and I had too many, way too many for me last week. Plus I'm feeling a bit stressed, so I thought I'll do an 'Annette'! Take care Wray

Mar 22, 2012
How to reduce dosage
by: Brittany

Okay Wray, I'm taking your advice and using a higher dosage. Today is the first day of using 400mg daily for the next 14 days before my period. If I can bypass the estrogen dominant symptoms, I will! This high of a dose will be a little expensive(though I'm willing to pay to get my health on track). My question is - how long should one typically stay on this high of an amount before trying to reduce? And at what rate should one reduce (how many mg daily or weekly or monthly should be eliminated when reducing)?

Mar 23, 2012
To: Brittany
by: Annette Canada

Hi Brittany if you can use the cream straight for a few months and forget your cycle. This will ensure you get the estrogen under control. From experience it get's worse stopping and starting the cream if progesterone isn't the dominant hormone. That should be your goal to minimize estrogen dominance symptoms!!!

Mar 24, 2012
How to reduce dosage
by: Wray

Hi Brittany Annette has a good point, I do sometimes recommend this to women, particularly if they have bad symptoms. It does cost more of course. When you stop the progesterone prior to bleeding, please watch for adverse symptoms. These are caused by oestrogen rising again. If this should occur, I suggest you follow Annette's advice and use it daily for 2-3 months. It's so difficult to say how long it will take, symptoms are the best guide. Once you feel better, begin reducing by no more than 16mg per reduction, staying on that amount till stable, before reducing further. In time you'll find the level that suits best, not forgetting stress drops levels, so symptoms can come back. Don't forget to have a vitamin D test done, there's more info on the hair loss page I gave you. Take care Wray

Mar 24, 2012
Thanks Annette
by: Brittany

Thanks so much, Annette, for your advice. This was exactly what I was wondering if I should do (just use the progesterone non-stop through a few cycles). I was a little surprised that I got the estrogen dominant symptoms since I don't have severe problems like endometriosis, ovarian cysts, constant bleeding, etc...just the slight depression before my period and the hair thinning (that's not to say the hair thinning hasn't been pretty distressing). I'm planning on using 400mg daily through two cycles (my pocketbook will just have to suffer!) and then decreasing. Do you think that will be sufficient? Any advice on the rate at which I should decrease? Thanks again!

Mar 24, 2012
400mg Progesterone
by: Joy (South Africa)

I agree with Annette totally. By starting on 400mg/12ml one eliminates those dreadful estrogen dominant symptoms. As far as I am concerned if you start high it is so much better. Once you feel stable enough then SLOWLY reduce to a level that suits you, remembering to never use less than 100mg/3ml per day.

Of course there are people who need even more than 400mg before it helps them.


Mar 26, 2012
one more question
by: Brittany

Thank you so much Wray, Annette, and Joy, for your helpful comments! It's very reaffirming. Since this is all new for me, I have one more question. I'm planning on using the 400mg straight through my next two cycles...but after that, do I just stop for 14 days and then get back on the high dose for the 14 days after ovulation (gradully reducing the dose during these days)?

Mar 27, 2012
one more question
by: Wray

Hi Brittany You might not need such a high amount for so long. Unless you're like Annette of course! She needed over 1000mg/day sometimes. Once you've been on the 400mg/day for a month, try reducing slowly, 16mg each reduction, and stay on that for a few days to see how you feel. If fine keep reducing slowly. This way you will finally arrive at a point where you've gone too low. You'll know this as symptoms will begin emerging. It should take about 2 months, maybe shorter, maybe longer. Once you've found a happy level, you could then try following your cycle by stopping the cream. I suggest you do this when you start bleeding at the end of the 2 plus months. If symptoms return, you know it's too soon. So continue on the same amount for another cycle, then try again. It is trial and error, I wish I could be more exact. Take care Wray

Jan 28, 2013
How much is 400 mg?
by: Mary

Hi Wray

I took Natpro awhile ago, but think my dosage was too small, and therefore led to estrogen dominance. I became discouraged and worried, because my hair loss increased, but reading your comments about the need to take as much as 400 mg to overcome the estrogen dominance makes sense. Could you tell me how many teaspoons amount to 400 mg? I've tried to find an online converter but somehow I don't think I'm getting the right answer. Thanks!

Jan 30, 2013
How much is 400 mg?
by: Wray

Hi Mary The amount does have to be high to get rid of symptoms. The problem with too low an amount it stimulates oestrogen. But before this is made, the body first makes testosterone. Believe it or not women make more testosterone each month than oestrogen, luckily most of it is converted! See this chart by Genova Diagnostics. So the Hair Loss was caused by excess testosterone before it's conversion. 400mg is 12ml of cream or 2.4tsp. We also have a chart at the bottom of our page on How to use progesterone cream. Unless your symptoms are very severe, I don't think you'll need as high as 400mg/day, I suggest you try 200mg/day. If you find the hair loss and other symptoms worsen, then please increase to 300-400mg/day. I'm not sure of your age, but here are two other pages you could look through, Peri-menopause and Menopause. Take care Wray


Jan 30, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Mary

Hi Wray

Thanks for your quick response! I am 34 now, but my hair loss started just as I turned 29, a couple months after I went off the birth control pill. I am thoroughly convinced that is what started it because I had a full head of hair prior to that. Yes, hair loss does run in my mother's family line but I don't think that has to dictate that I should lose my hair at such a young age too. I recently attended an online conference where they talked about epigenetics, how you can 'turn off' bad gene expression, and I am doing my best do to that! I remember near the end of me taking the progesterone I was taking about 200 mg, but maybe I'll just try that again and see how it goes. Honestly nothing I've done has helped so I'm willing to give this a try again. I'll probably also go back to doing the other things you recommended, particularly with the NAC and the Vitamin D. Thanks again for your help :)

Jan 31, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Wray

Hi Mary I'm so delighted you know about epigenetics. I mention it and get a blank stare! I'm fascinated you attended an epigenetic conference, it's something which interests me greatly. I have dozens of papers about it, and would one day like to do a web page on it. My concern is it's going un-noticed by the majority of people, and yet we are rapidly affecting all our children in diverse and adverse ways. But how to get this message across. Women blindly go about having children, not realising the potential harm that could come to them now. In fact we have an audio clip of a researcher talking about it on our pregnancy page, see Pregnancy page, plus I bring in references to it on the page. For instance there's reason to believe autism is one such problem. Cases have risen exponentially over the last 10 years or so. Even maternal behaviour alters the gene, see here. The changes can occur very quickly too, see here and here. There is now a catch phrase "the foetal origin of adult disease', see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below

Jan 31, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Wray

Hi Mary You probably know Bruce Lipton's work, this is a video clip he did on epigenetics, see here. Both Progesterone and Vitamin D are transcriptional factors, they can alter our genes, but beneficially. A lack of both during foetal growth leads to so many problems when a child or adult. And yes you are quite right about stopping Contraceptives being the cause of the problem. I go into it on this page. Don't forget the inositol either, it's very helpful for hair loss. Please let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Feb 02, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Mary

Hi Wray

Thank you for the link to that video! One last question if you don't mind...I read a lot about L-lysine also being critical for hair growth. Do you think that is necessary as well, or will the NAC, Vit D and inositol suffice? I find it overwhelming sometimes with all the supposed things one could take to help with hair growth. Thank you!

Feb 06, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Wray

Hi Mary I do mention lysine on the hair loss page, but more as an aside, i.e. "There is some evidence the amino acid lysine is beneficial too." There is one paper on the page referring to it. There are plenty of references to it on blog sites, and those selling supps, but so far I've only found one paper on Pubmed which mentions it, but not as a hair growth amino, see here. So you could try it. The problem with trying too many things, you never know which helped. There's strong evidence those three supps, vitamin D, inositol and NAC do help. Take care Wray

Feb 07, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Mary

Thanks Wray

I think I'll stick with the progesterone and the 3 supplements and see how it goes, I'll let you know!

Mary

Feb 09, 2013
Re: How much is 400mg?
by: Wray

Hi Mary Please do as I appreciate feedback, even if contrary to what I hope! Take care Wray

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