NatPro problem

by Louise Stanley
(Canada)

I have been using NatPro along with a paleo-type diet and herbal supplements to treat lyme symptoms. I have good energy and most of my pain and anxiety have resolved however whenever I try to decrease the amount of progesterone I am using my symptoms return. I have been using NatPro for 4 years now and have never had trouble ordering or receiving it; it usually arrives within 10 days of ordering (I am living in Canada).

This summer they were backordered for some time (I did receive an explanation upon enquiry). But now I have an order that I placed 1 1/2 months ago for which I have a receipt/confirmation, but can get no response to e-mail enquiry about shipment - I have been trying to reach NatPro for 3 weeks now. Is the company still in business? I am concerned that I will have to find another brand, and I know it will be a lot more expensive because of the lower concentrations that other companies use.

That along with the price for lyme supplements is going to be too expensive for me to continue, and I will be forced to decrease my dosage. Has anyone received shipments lately, or been able to contact the company?

Thanks
Louise

Comments for NatPro problem

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Dec 11, 2011
NatPro problem
by: Wray

Hi Louise I'm dismayed no one has contacted you, I have informed the department concerned and they will be sending an email to you. I'm delighted the progesterone has helped you, it does relieve Anxiety and is an anti-inflammatory. But I only have two papers on Lyme disease and progesterone, see here and here. I've looked for more but it seems no one is interested in studying the possible benefit progesterone could have. But there are studies on it's effect on arthritis, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Please have a vitamin D test done, you live in Canada where the level of sunlight is too low most of the year to produce any in the skin, see here, here, here and here. Continued below. Take care Wray

Dec 11, 2011
NatPro problem Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Louise These are papers on vitamin D and Lyme disease, see here and here. And these on vitamin D and arthritis, see here, here,here, here, here, here, here and here. Please consider taking some, as evidence from TBI trials show that combining vitamin D and progesterone, enhances progesterone's effects, see here, here and here. By adding the vitamin D it might be possible to reduce the amount of progesterone you have to use. Both these are potent antioxidants and suppress inflammatory cytokines, increase anti-inflammatory cytokines, suppress TNF-a, switch the Th1 response off, and induce the anti-inflammatory Th2 response, and increase glutathione levels. Please consider taking N-acetyl cysteine too, at least 2000mg/day, another potent antioxidant, see here, here and here. Continued below. Take care Wray

Dec 11, 2011
NatPro problem Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Louise For more info on vitamin D levels, testing etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth, Birmingham Hospital and Vitamin D Links websites. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml or 175-250nmol/L and not the 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L most labs and doctors regard as adequate. And the minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although the latest research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. I'm so pleased you follow the The Paleo Diet, I try to as well. I do hope the order is sorted out soon. Take care Wray

Dec 14, 2011
NatPro problem response
by: Louise

Thank you for your quick reply - working over the weekend to help us!

I do supplement with 2000IU D3 per day and 100 mcg MK-7 3x weekly, and I am using approx. 150 mg of progesterone daily (my periods still come regularly - I am 49). I can't swing a vitD test right now as my 10 yo daughter is being treated for Lyme/bartonella in the US and we are having to pay for everything. Progesterone keeps me functioning and able to help her. I will probably start treatment when my daughter finishes.

I have noted in a couple of blogs on lyme and pregnancy that symptoms often improve with pregnancy, but return after birth. I have seen similar resolution of symptoms for other chronic diseases like CFS and MS during pregnancy noted on the web. Interesting to see that using TSO or hookworm therapy also triggers an increased Th2 response and a decrease in symptoms of autism and chronic disease.

Do you think the change from a Th1 to Th2 response resulting from progesterone use (or other methods - TSO for instance) is actually holding the infection at bay or is it just decreasing symptoms while the infection continues to spread?

I am sorry to have to add this. I have been waiting for replies to e-mails sent to your admin. link as well as replies to messages received 27 Oct regarding my original order, with no response so far. I have sent several this week. Lately I have recommended you to a couple of friends that have been having health issues as well, and am a little embarrased that they may be having trouble ordering as well.

You have been instrumental in helping me to come to the conclusion that I am the only advocate for my own health, and that main-stream medicine may not be useful in many instances. Thank you for opening my mind to other possibilities.

Dec 15, 2011
NatPro problem response
by: Wray

Hi Louise Well you have opened my mind too! I've not heard of TSO or hygeine therapy before, but have now read up on it. Very interesting, but for one obvious, but maybe not so obvious fact. The theory is that the prevalence of autoimmune diseases are found more frequently in developed nations, and are in fact rising. And that due to medication etc, less parasites are found there. But the overlooked fact is that developed nations are primarily in the northern part of the globe, where the sun shines less. Moreover people living there are spending an increasing time indoors, living and working. Even developing countries, (most of which have plenty of sun) with some industrialisation suffer the same fate, as the industrialisation means they spend far longer indoors. Plus the greater spending power means more time is spent in front of the television, and not being outside. As I said, vitamin D stimulates the Th2 cytokines, which suppresses the Th1 inflammatory response. So does progesterone. So is the moral of the story to spend more time outside, forever pregnant?! There's no doubt many 'autoimmune' diseases resolve when pregnant, only to come back after birth. As for infection causing an autoimmune disease, I don't believe any exists. All pathogens are opportunists, so if inflammation is present in any tissue, they will take the opportunity presented and attack that tissue as it's weak. The immune system is incredibly efficient, it's only when it gets overwhelmed by a pathogen such as Lyme, or malaria too, that it can't cope. Unfortunately most people's immune systems are so weakened by the toxins in our food, water, air, not to mention the skin care we use, that it battles to keep up. Stress too plays havoc, as it causes a cascade of inflammatory cytokines to occur. If the body is having to continually fight inflammation, which is nothing more than oxidative stress, the antioxidant nutrients are used up more rapidly than can be replaced by food alone. So if a further insult is added to an already over strained system by a pathogen, be it a virus, bacteria or fungus, illness occurs. Intriguingly, malaria can be prevented from becoming cerebral malaria by the amino acids glutamine and arginine. Both are antioxidants, and glutamine is the primary source of fuel for the immune system. Levels drop sharply when any trauma occurs. So to my mind high doses of the healing nutrients should be a part of any protocol to assist the immune system. And in the case of Lyme, malaria or other virulent pathogens, drugs will be needed too. Continued below.

Dec 15, 2011
NatPro problem response Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Louise You mention MS, a study published in this month's Annals of Neurology has almost conclusively found it's caused by a lack of vitamin D. The study was conducted in Canada which has one of the highest rates, Scotland has the highest. Both countries lie far north of the equator, and Scotland is covered in cloud for much of the time. Autism is another you mention, Dr Cannell believes this is also caused by a lack of vitamin D, but while the child is in utero. He's reversed the condition in a number children if caught young enough, and if they take very high doses. He's currently running a study on his theory of vitamin D and autism. I understand about the vitamin D test, but please consider taking 10,000iu's per day. 2000iu's does not raise the level sufficiently to enable the body to begin storing it, which occurs at 40ng/ml, see here. Thanks for the kind words, week days role into weekends and I don't notice it! Bless you for telling your friends, but I too am dismayed at the lack of contact you've found. I have again asked the department in question to look into it, and will keep following it up. Take care Wray

Jan 05, 2012
NatPro Problem response 3
by: Louise

Wray:

Just an update: I received the re-shipment mailed on 16 Dec on Jan 4. Thank you for following up on that for me.

In regards to the other correspondance, what do you think about the Marshall protocol for chronic infection and his use of Benicar to block the VDR allowing the innate immune system to function properly in response to Th1 bacterial infection?

http://bacteriality.com/about-the-mp/

We have found the inverted vit D ratios in my daughter's tests.

Just something else I have been thinking about.

I have also come across these papers on the allopregnanolone metabolite of progesterone:

Allopregnanolone reverses neurogenic and cognitive
deficits in mouse model of Alzheimer’s disease

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/14/6498.full.pdf

and

Impaired neurosteroid (allopregnanolone) synthesis in multiple sclerosis

Brain (2011) 134(9): 2703-2721

With synopsis here:

http://www.medicine.med.ualberta.ca/NewsEvents/Pages/MS-Breakthrough.aspx

I know I think better on higher doses of progesterone, perhaps the function of metabolites in the brain.

Thanks again for all your hard work, the information found on your site is wonderful for those who take the time to look.

Louise

Jan 07, 2012
NatPro Problem response 3
by: Wray

Hi Louise You have given me more to think about! I would love to have the opinion about the MP from the doctors who've studied vitamin D. I must admit to being a bit confused by their theory that vitamin D should not only be suppressed, but should not be taken and the sun to be avoided. There is so much information that low levels have a direct influence on the disease in question. Sufficient vitamin D down-regulates the Th1-driven immune responses. I would never call it a Th1 bacterial infection. When infected the Th1 immune system comes into play, but often the response is far too violent, and induces severe inflammation. Plus vitamin D induces the synthesis of antimicrobial peptides considered as natural antibiotics of the immune system, ie cathelicidin and defensin. There is often another indicator of vitamin D deficiency in some diseases, ie Crohn's and bone disease, see here, here, here, here, here and here. No one questions the validity of vitamin D and bone health. If the MP was followed for Crohn's surely the bones would suffer even more. There's no doubt that dysregulation of the VDR does occur, but methinks it could be due to a lack of 25 vitamin D. This is needed to keep 1,25 vitamin D in check. In fact they even say this on the site, and yet don't recommend taking it. I've recently looked at sarcoidosis, even the vitamin D boffins say to avoid vitamin D, as 1,25 levels are very high. But the way my mind thinks, I wonder if giving a very high dose, ie 100,000iu's per day or more, would reverse the process. It appears in sarcoidosis that the macrophages convert 25 vitamin D into 1,25-D at a rapid rate. Maybe if they were overwhelmed with 25-D they would calm down? I know someone who has it, but don't think he'd be willing to test out my theory! You saw the papers I gave on vitamin D and RA, and how low it is in people who have it, and their response when taking it. You also know my opinion on the role pathogens play, I don't believe they are the cause of any dysregulation of the immune system, but a result of it. I don't think any of us takes enough cognisance of the effect stress has on us. This of course comes in a multitude of forms, not least a lack of vitamin D and other antioxidants! As an aside, I was away for a few months last year, and hadn't seen my sister law since leaving. Well she experimented taking 600,000iu's vitamin D per day for a month. Continued below.

Jan 07, 2012
NatPro Problem response 3 Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Louise I have never seen her look so good, she was so un-stressed, calm, smiling, loving life and had lost a bit of weight too. It just makes me think. Many thanks for the paper on allopregnanolone, it's one I don't have, I'm sure there are many more! But you might be interested in these, see here, here, here and here. Interestingly they are considering using it as a bio-marker for Alzheimer's as it's always low. Oestrogen, much to their dismay actually increases the risk, see here. Also interesting about the allo and MS. It's such a pity, but research into progesterone and MS goes back years, mainly observational studies. Why does it take so long? Another of my 'theories'…. I feel if they gave IV vitamin D and progesterone to MS patients, as they do for TBI, it would clear the 'disease' in a short space of time, but will they?! As you seem so interested in reading the research, I've flooded you with more papers! See here,here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here. Continued below.

Jan 07, 2012
NatPro Problem response 3 Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Louise Plus here and here. One final thing, before I give you indigestion, there is no evidence in MS of any bacterial infection. And yet progesterone reverses the Th1/Th2 cytokine response, vitamin D also controls this, see here here, plus these here and here. And the second paper I gave on Crohn's disease shows vitamin D's role in the Th1/Th2 response. Bless you for the kind words, and for reading all the papers I send, I'm sure many role their eyes when seeing them! And thank you for sending me papers too, and making me think and question, I love it! So relieved a replacement was sent. Take care Wray

Jan 31, 2012
NatPro problem response 4
by: Louise

Wray, thanks again for the great response, although I do not totally agree that MS can not have bacterial involvement. I was able to find this paper citing demyelination and multifocal lesions in brains with lyme infection.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/119/6/2143.full.pdf

Use of antibiotics resolved the lesions.

Lyme tests are highly innacurate and even a western blot with several positive antibody bands may be considered negative by the CDC (kind of like being partially pregnant I guess).

Anecdotally, I have seen many instances where people are Dx with MS or Parkinsons only to find that they have lyme and that symptoms and brain lesions resolve with antibiotic treatment.

But, whatever the cause, vit D and progesterone should help an ailing brain.

Because progesterone has obviously helped me, I am considering giving it to my daughter who is lyme/bartonella positive. She has autoimmune neurological symptoms of motor/vocal tics and neurological symptoms of ADHD, lack of concentration, sound and light sensitivity. I am using 150 mg per day and weigh 140lbs and am using it continuously. She is 10 years old and weighs 60 lb. Should I give it to her continuously? She has just started developing breast buds.

Feb 01, 2012
NatPro problem response 4
by: Wray

Hi Louise More fascinating studies, thanks! I don't doubt MS could have bacterial involvement, but I do believe it's the result of weakened tissue, rather than the cause itself. In the paper you gave I could only find four references to MS, in the intro where it says LNB can mimic MS…..
"Chronic CNS involvement of LNB may mimic diseases such as neurosyphilis, meningoencephalitis of viral, fungal or mycobacterial origin, multiple sclerosis…."
on page 2151…
"Several studies have found an association between demyelinating disease and B. burgdorferi infection (Reik et al., 1985; Kohler et al., 1988; Pachner et al., 1989; Clavelou et al., 1993), although in multiple sclerosis B. burgdorferi infection rarely seems to be the trigger (Coyle,
1989; Baig et al., 1991; Coyle et al. 1993). Direct damage to oligodendroglial cells may cause demyelination because B. burgdorferi very actively binds to them (Baig et al., 1991)."
Although they go on to say "Autoimmune reactions, triggered by B. burgdorferi infection, may also cause demyelination."
But, I still adhere to my theory that an 'autoimmune' reaction is not, but is a cell deficient in vitamin D (and progesterone?!) which is now malfunctioning and liable to attack. Obviously not in the case of Lyme disease.
Plus they gave two papers on MS, see here and here. Which both found low LNB in MS patients. Although by attacking the CNS it can cause MS symptoms, I have two women using the progesterone both with LNB and now both with MS.
I did find this intriguing on page 2152…. "We have also obtained evidence that B. burgdorferi infection can cause suppression of Th2 cells and activation of Thl cells in patients with late Lyme borreliosis (Oksi et al., 1996)". There were four papers under the references for Oksi, only one for 1996, see here. As both demyelination and suppression of Th2 occurs, I can't but see how progesterone won't help, vitamin D too. As this also enhances the Th2 response. I'm delighted you want to try the progesterone for your daughter. As she has no cycle yet, it should be used continuously. I suggest she tries between 70-100mg/day. I so appreciate your contact, your willingness to experiment, the research you do. I've already learnt a great deal from you, and only hope from all this you both get well. And maybe all this info will help others too. Take care Wray

Oct 14, 2012
Lyme Disease
by: Wray

I hope you get this note from me. I've been listening to a rather long interview of a Dr Klinghardt by Dr Mercola, and thought of you. He treats Lyme Disease in a different fashion....."Dr. Klinghardt addresses the parasites first, followed by the bacteria and the viruses. The "Klinghardt antimicrobial cocktail," which includes wormwood (artemisinin), phospholipids, vitamin C, and various herbs, is an integral part of this treatment. He addresses viral infections with Viressence (by BioPure), which is a tincture of Native American herbs." This is the link to his interview here. And this is the link to Dr Klinghardt's site here. I do hope things are improving for you and your daughter. Take care Wray

Dec 15, 2012
Response
by: Louise

Thank you so much, Wray, for thinking of my 11 yo daughter and me.

I am indeed up to speed with regards to Dr Klinghardt. Most of his newest postings show up on the Mercola website or TheBetterHealthGuy site. I do admit to thinking that some of his ideas were too far out there for me to consider, but as my daughter and I travel this lyme/bartonella/PANDAS trail, it is making more sense.

We have begun treating for parasites with her protocol and she is doing very well. She is now on pulsed medications 3 days of the week and although she herxed significantly when we started treating in this fashion, the herxes have decrease in severity to a point where her pain and motor/vocal ticcing has resolved and her behaviour is more age appropriate. Part if this is due, I think, to addressing her brain autoimmune reaction/inflammation with supplements like luteolin and progesterone. She says that her morning and evening applications of progesterone definately make her feel more relaxed.

She has started puberty, and so the unopposed estrogen that she is producing probably doesn't help her symptoms either. Yeah! for your progesterone cream. Neither of us would be doing as well as we are without it. Thank you SO MUCH for all you do!

Dec 19, 2012
Response
by: Wray

Hi Louise Oh I'm so delighted to hear this! I think of the two of you so often, wondering how you're both doing. I haven't come across anything else yet, but if I do I'll pass it on. Although you'll probably beat me to it! The poor little thing, the herx reaction can be so severe, and in one so young. I'm interested that you decided to treat the parasites, in spite of your misgivings about Klinghardt's protocol. I didn't take a good look at his site, just too briefly to pick much up. But I know you look at things in depth, so I appreciate your feedback. I'm so pleased the cream is helping both of you. Maybe in time, you could put your journey down, the protocols you used, the nutrients, the drugs, the herbs etc. I would love to have something of value about Lyme on our website. I haven't done a page on it, as luckily it doesn't crop up much, well I don't get many queries about it. But more to the point I don't know enough about it to write a page. I've just asked my brother who does our website to do a web search using the term 'Lyme Disease', and he told me there are 42,937 searches per month! Searches on progesterone number just over 30,000. I had no idea so many people would be looking for help, it's shocking. Considering it's not a recognised disease either, or maybe that's why, as there are so few practitioners who can help. Sending you loving thoughts, take care Wray

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