Mrs Karen Robertson

by Karen Robetson
(Fife, Scotland, UK)

My son was diagnosed with Chronic fatigue syndrome(CFS) at the tender age of just 9 years. Very long story short, following an admission to Great Ormond Street Hospital, London (GOSH) in June of last year, it was clear from tests he was low in Copper. He also has Hyperisulineamic Hypoglyceamia, unusually low blood sugar, high insulin.
Following a year of trying to raise body copper levels with supplements but unable to raise Copper levels, he eventually had a 65 copper uptake test done, it is apparent he is absorbing copper in the stomach BUT it isn't incorporating well into Ceruloplasmin. Ceruloplasmin and copper urine level being low also.

I've struggled to find anyone to help us further so I have researched as much as I possibly can only to discover Estrogen elevates and modulates body copper and ceruloplasmin!

We have just done a saliva testing for Estrogen and Progesterone and although we don't have the levels as yet it appears both Progesterone and Estrogen levels are very HIGH.Unusual for a man I've been told. Certain we do at last have answers following 19 years off CFS type symptoms, including suicidal depression.

I'm very anxious to know the levels/ratio so we can work out what is required here to balance these two hormones. I really am hoping you may be able to guide me with this. If both Estrogen and Progesterone are high what on earth do I do to balance them???? If the ratio is less than 600:1 (progesterone to Estrogen), then do we apply Prog cream at high doses (200-400mg a day) even if Prog is very high? OR do we administer Estrogen cream, or both? It's a bit of an unusual case this as a faulty gene/receptor is involved here and the mechanism isn't understood at GOSH. The fault may lie in the Estrogen Receptor ERalpha.

Can HIGH Progesterone cause a Functional Estrogen deficiency?? In which case how on earth do we balance them?

I really would be sooo grateful for any input with this as I cannot find anyone who can help us.

I look forward to hearing from you

Kind regards

Karen Robertson

Comments for Mrs Karen Robertson

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Dec 18, 2013
Mrs Karen Robertson
by: Wray

Hi Karen Thanks for letting Joy know your son is now 19, I was going to ask you this, but she passed on the message. Maybe you could let me have the saliva test results when you have them. I do hope they did testosterone too. And have you had a vitamin D test done at all? CFS, like most of our modern diseases or disorders, is caused by oxidative stress. Particularly damage done to the mitochondria. One of the most damaging things is glucose, or any food which converts to glucose. I take it the hyperisulinaemic hypoglycaemia is not due to a congenital defect, or a pancreatic tumour, or drug induced, or excess injectable insulin due to diabetes? Or something else I've missed? If none of these I suggest he increase his fat intake considerably, and reduce his glucose to zero. Apart from the above list, nothing increases insulin more than glucose, or more rapidly. Excess glucose causes glycation, or an increase in free radicals which damages cells. He has a trigger happy pancreas, which responds too quickly to any carbohydrate intake. Blood glucose goes up, the pancreas over responds, insulin shoots up, and blood glucose plummets. So assuming he has none of the above list, he must avoid all grains, all legumes, all dairy, all sweet starchy fruits and veggies. All foods and drinks containing sugars of any kind. Eat only animal protein in moderate to low amounts, and plenty of fats and oils. Very little to any carbs, and if he does eat any, only the green leaves. He needs to have at least 50% of the calories in his diet as fat, in fact we all should. He might need more initially. Only the good fats should be used, i.e. MCT oil, coconut oil, butter, cocoa butter, olive oil or macadamia oil. The first four are saturated fats, the other two mono-unsaturated fats. The best is the MCT oil, an extract from coconut oil. The body converts the fatty acid into ketones, which it can burn for energy. In fact the brain does better on these than glucose. MCT oil forms ketones more efficiently than the other oils. The diet varies from a 4:1 ratio of fat to protein/carb down to a 1:1 ratio which is the easier to follow. The best and clearest explanation I've found of the 1:1 is this web site on the Basic Ketogenic Diet. It's essential to eat enough protein, but not in excess as the body can convert protein into glucose. This is based on 0.9g to 1.0g of protein per kg per day of lean muscle mass. Contrary to what is generally believed a lack of protein leads to bone loss. Continued below

Dec 18, 2013
Mrs Karen Robertson Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Karen You could try contacting Dr Myhill, who runs tests to identify any underlying problem causing the disease. She practices in Wales, and one of her specialities is CFS/ME. She uses D-ribose as part of her treatment. This pentose sugar is part of the ATP pathway, and is therefore critical to energy levels. It has been used successfully in CFS, see here, here, here and here. To my mind the D-ribose is a stop gap, the real problem lies in balancing the blood glucose and insulin, and this should be done with the good fats. Take care Wray

Jan 05, 2014
low copper and estrogen/progesterone
by: karen robertson

The low blood sugar is due to an autosommal dominant gene which i carry. I too have hypos. The consultants at great ormond st hospital dont understand the mechanism but the hypthoses is that it is a faulty gene and stomach hormone that is at the root of it. I have been in touch with dr myhill the past two years and i will be letting her know the results of these homones as soon as i get them. Its the ratio i am interested in. I should let you know since ive been taking prog cream (about 200mg a day) the past four weeks for hot flashes and awful body chills/shivers and aches in my kidney/ back/hip area,(had since coming of the contraceptive pill) I noticed on the 8th day of taking progesterone cream my hypos disappeared and they have done ever since!! The first time in 38/40 years i dont have to eat every two hours! Wonderful! There is no doubt about it, progestetone has sorted the insulin and blood sugar issue. My take on this is that the fault may lie in the estrogen receptor gene (ERalpha) and i.hope and pray the ratio between these two hormones will tell us what is non functioning/dominant and/or deficient. So in this case, no amount if change in diet is ever going to sort it. Looks like the problem lies in the estrogen and/or progestrone receptors. My late mother had a migraine EVERY month just before her period and it was this that i could nevet quite fit in with the low body copper. Since researching it all I have discovered Estrogen elevates ceruloplasmin (cp) and body copper. Callum was born premature and often prem babies are born copper deficient. With this faulty mechanism we carry,Callum had no chance which explains his ill health from birth. I have dissected each and every one of our symptoms including my younger son who has the 'gene' as well but is less pressing and when his copper levels are at marginal levels he too is suffering with fatigue and other symptoms. The very fact estrogen elevates cp and plays a huge role in the incorporation of copper into cp which is the problem with these boys,highlights the very possibility that estrogen and/ or progesterone are the root cause of the whole family medical presentation. Not to mention the effect prog cream has had on my Hypo's. Estrogen has a huge role on the pancreatic b cells and in the insulin release. I am certaon we at last have answers. Its just not knowing what and how to correct the high levels of both progestetone and estrogen. Obvioulsy we need to see what the levels are and then hopefully we can balance them and put them right!!! May I ask am I correct in thinking that if they r out of balnce, no matter how high the levels, neither of them function properly?????? Also, could it be possible Callum has a functional estrogen deficiency caused by very high progesterone levels??? If so, how on earth do we correct this? Sooo grateful for any input on this. HUGE thanks. I feel the world on my shoulders with all of this as noone seems to have a clue what I am talking about! Agh!

Jan 08, 2014
low copper and estrogen/progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Karen I've been meaning to answer you but have just not felt up to it, so apologies for the delay. I see from the email you sent which was forwarded to me, that the levels areā€¦.
Estradiol 3.1pg/ml (ref range for males 0.4-2.5pg/ml)
Progesterone 607.4pg/ml (ref range for males <60pg/ml)
Progesterone/Estradiol Ration 169.7

So your son's oestradiol levels are too high. Probably because his aromatase is too high, was this checked? Factors known to increase aromatase activity include age, obesity, insulin, the gonadotropins LH and FSH, IGF-1 and alcohol. In all probability it's the high insulin causing the level to rise. Aromatase is the enzyme that effects the conversion of testosterone to oestrogen which explains his elevated level. So the last thing your son needs is more oestrogen. I can't explain why his progesterone is higher than normal, but I've never found this to be an adverse thing in either sex. It matters not how high each hormone is, if the ratio is out adverse symptoms will be felt. Very little cognisance is taken of men's progesterone levels, and their ratio. But in women the ratios vary considerably, depending on the referring lab. Anywhere from 100:1 up to 500:1 is given. We've found from Saliva Tests we run that the ratio rises to 600:1 and over, so recommend women aim for that. Men too. I don't know enough about copper to comment, apart from the fact that too high a level causes depression, to severe depression to psychosis. Very interesting the progesterone has helped your blood glucose, it should. Whereas oestrogen destabilises it, see here. I wish you'd believe me about diet, blood glucose and insulin. If you increased your fat intake you'd find not only would you not have to eat every two hours, something I used to do, but you'd find you would only need about 2 meals a day, which I now eat. It won't do any harm to try it, your son too. By increased fat intake I mean at least 110g fat per day, or 50% fat, based on a 2000 calories per day diet. This does include the fat found within a food, like that within an egg yolk, or the fat on the meat. Continued below

Jan 08, 2014
low copper and estrogen/progesterone Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Karen,

This is the minimum our daily fat should be, in many cases it's taken up to 155g/day or 70% fat for those with epilepsy or cancer. Please try this, it will certainly stabilise insulin, and for energy the best fat is MCT oil. All the grains, legumes and sweet starchy fruits and veggies should be avoided like the plague. Please regard these as poisons. Pity about your mother and her catamenial Migraines, as these are always resolved with progesterone. If you wish for more reading matter or papers on the ketogenic diet, I can give them to you. Take care Wray

Jan 08, 2014
Results of saliva testing
by: Karen

Dear Wray

I do feel awful keep bothering you but I really have no one else to ask. I know you were keen for the saliva results for my son so I thought I'd post them here for you to see. They read as following:

Progesterone 607.4pg/ml (ref range <60)!!! So this is VERY high and no creams or any medication were taken prior to this test at all. The test was done twice, as the first reading was just as high! So its a pretty solid result.

Estradiol 3.1pg/ml (ref range 0.4- 2.5pg/ml). This too is high for a 19 year old male!

Progesterone/Estradiol Ratio 169.7

I am desperately hoping you can guide me here a bit Wray. Is the ratio out between my sons Progesterone and Estrogen? If so, is it Estrogen that is required here to get the two hormones into balance to function???

HUGE thanks Wray. I do hope you are improving.

With kindest regards

Karen

Jan 09, 2014
Cannot thank you enough Wray
by: Karen Robertson

Wray, I really cannot thank you enough. I wish I could pop over the pond and make you a cup of tea and a cake! I could give you the biggest hug also!! You are an absolute gem to even consider replying whilst taking time out to recover yourself.

I have throughout this journey with my son the past 19 years come across a handful of quite exceptional people and it has been those people who have shown compassion who have got us to where we are today. You are one of them and I really cannot say thank you enough. HUGELY indebted to you.

I hope we have answers at last. I do feel we have and it lies in the balancing of theses two hormones. Quite unbelievable. Even now I'm looked at ga ga by the medics! IF this does indeed turn out to be an imbalance of two steroid hormones, I do feel I will have to make the decision as to whether or not to take this further in terms of trying to establish Bio chemistry testing on our NHS here in the UK. I don't think I could live with myself knowing so many suffer needlessly. Watching your son from birth struggle with health throughout, missing out on education and a childhood, when it is totally avoidable is surely grounds for working towards this goal. This is for another day BUT I hope and pray dear Callum will see improvement once his ratio between these two hormones is up. I have already started him on 200mg a day (100mg twice a day). Do you think this is enough Wray or should I go even higher up to 200mg twice a day totalling in 400mg a day? I'm presuming once the ratio is around 500/600:1, then Estrogen,not just Progesterone, should function properly???

I have taken on board all your advise with the diet! THANK YOU SOOO MUCH. HUGE HUGE thanks Wray. There aren't many of you but I am entirely grateful for your kindness, guidance, expertise and compassion.

Do take care yourself!

Karen
(Scotland, UK)


Apr 23, 2014
high doses of Progesterone cream - three months on - no change!
by: Karen (Scotland)

I am terribly anxious for some feedback but I know you are still on sabbatical. I do hope you are improving. Not sure if Joy can reply and advise. I'd be sooo grateful if someone can give me some advice with the following up to date situation with my son.

We are three months into using 800mg Progesterone cream and we have increased this dose the last week to 1000mg a day. Apart from a couple of days when Callum could smell for the first time since he was nine years old, there has been no change at all in his symptoms(hyerpinsulineamic hypoglycemia/fatigue/brain fog/anxiety/depression/sinus congestion). AAGHH!

I am absolutely certain the high estrogen is the problem as I have continued to be Hypo (low blood sugar, high insulin) free since December last year. I am needing to take approx 1100/1200mg Prog a day. All menopausal symptoms have abaited which is wonderful. I have no blood sugar wobbles at all. After a lifetime of Hypoglycemia, I'm certain it is the Progesterone and Estrogen imbalance that has been the problem in this family all the time.

However, I am hoping you may be able to shed some light on why my son's blood sugar has NOT stablized after three months of HIGH progesterone, not to mention the other symptoms? The very fact he has been ill from birth (now 19 years)could it be it may take some months before these two hormones balance out and begin functioning?? Am I correct in proposing the possibility that neither Estrogen or Progesterone are functioning at all at the moment? Could it take a few more months before improvement is felt? That's my gut feeling here but I would be immensely grateful for your guidance and reassurance with this. I have no-one else to bounce this off!!

HUGELY grateful for all your help thus far with this. I'm just desperate after 20 years of a sick child, to see these symptoms lift and see him living.


Kindest regards and huge thanks

Karen

Apr 23, 2014
Would Alpha lipoic acid help???
by: Karen (Scotland)

I'm so sorry to send another post. I meant to ask in my last message if administering 1200mg Alpha Lipoic Acid once a day to my son, may help with the insulin spike and therefore stablise blood sugar??? In your opinion is it worth trying despite the Reactive Hypoglyceamia?

Many many thanks

Karen

Sep 07, 2014
son with estrogen dominance
by: karen robertson

I really do hope Wray can help me further with my sons high estrogen levels. I tried up to 800mg Progesterone cream over a period of 3months way back in February through to April this year which sadly didn't change any of Callums symptoms and he slipped into another severe suicidal depression. I knew I had to pull out all the stops to do all I could to try and understand why applying high doses of Progesterone cream wasnt changing anything. I decided to contact Dr Myhill in Wales and ask her to do a 24saliva stress test as I was wondering if the problem may lie in the Adrenals. It turns out Callum is VERY low in Cortisol especially in the morning and throughout the day and is high at night thus explaining his poor sleep cycle and that being day is night night is day and has veen since he crashed with fatigue at the age if 9 years!

So, we have been administrating hydrocortisine (HC) titrating up to 50mg a day and three months on there is absolutely no change. Aaaggh! I havent used any Progesterone cream since April. Could it be the HC isnt getting into the cells due to Callums high estrogen and that we may need to apply even higher amounts of Progesterone Cream possibly as high as 1200/1400mg a day to make Progesterone the dominant hormone which should bring down Cortisol binding globulin and allow HC to get into the cells and become active????

I feel I've almost reached the end of the road here with my dear son Callum and Im convinced we just need to reduce his estrogen but how much cream should we use and for how long. Three months of 800mg didnt cut it. Desperate for your input Wray. You are the most knowledgable person on this subject and I am truely grateful for all you selfless guidance thus far.

Im pleased to report ten months on using 600-1000mg a day of Prog cream has continued to stabilise my blood sugar. Having suffered with hyperinsulineamia hypoglycemia for 48 years, Im soooo grateful I found your amazing website. I would still be having hypos if it wasnt for Wray not to mention hot flushes and all the other menopausal symptoms. Im just desperate to stabilise Callums blood sugar and to do this I KNOW Ive got to bring down his insulin by reducing his estrogen I do hope you might give some thoughts on how to do this. I have a feeling the only option available to us is to apply higher than 800mg a day for longer than 3 months? Its interesting I still need quite high amounts to keep my symptoms at bay.

With enormous thanks
Karen

Sep 09, 2014
son with estrogen dominance
by: Wray

Hi Karen Bless you for the kind words. I had so hoped Dr Myhill would have helped Callum, unless of course the cortisol just requires more time. Did you try him on the keto diet as I suggested? Before you try the 1200/1400mg per day progesterone, please consider contacting a functional medicine doctor. This is the only route I can now think of, you've followed so many, I only hope this works. They look at the whole body, so the first interview is long and costly too. I've found this one doctor near Fife, see here. Alternatively please check the The Institute of Functional Medicine website. I'm delighted to hear how well you are doing, at least something is going right! Take care Wray

Sep 09, 2014
Cortisol may need a wee bit longer to work?
by: Karen

You are immensly kind to offer your advice so quickly. Thank you Wray. I think you deserve huge recognition for the work you have done and how you have helped so many people. I for one have found your website most helpful and I have referred to it many many times the past year since finding it Wonderful.

Your advice is very much appreciated and I will mull all what you have suggested. Interestingly, I received a blood result back today from the lab and I know it isn't of much use as they didn't give me an actual level but I was told Callum's Estrogen was less than 150pmol/L. So from this, I guess his Estrogen has indeed come down as it was over and above there range 10 months ago. I can only take from this that the Hydrocortisone is indeed beginning to work it's magic Also, Callum's mood has most certainly lifted the past couple of months. He has a much more optimistic and outlook and this has not happened since he was nine years old. He is 20 now. I am presuming that we do indeed need to give the Cortisol a bit more time to stabilise the insulin/blood sugar.


So mentally Callum is much improved on Hydrocortisone (HC). Dr Myhill also has him on Armour thyroid 2grains a day and I wonder if this has helped also. His sleep is improving also by way of day is no longer night and night is no longer day. There is no doubt about it, mentally, Callum is improving so I am hoping and praying that your comment about Cortisol needing longer, may just be what is needed here. May I ask Wray, if Progesterone worked for me by way of stabilising blood sugar but clearly I have enough Cortisol and don't have adrenal fatigue like Callum has be shown to have, could it be that he may need progesterone cream administered alongside the HC??? Just a thought? HUGE thanks for your time, as always. I wish this was all in our conventional medicine . Mad it isn't!

Best regards and warmest wishes

Karen

Sep 10, 2014
Cortisol may need a wee bit longer to work?
by: Wray

Hi Karen Well it seems by standing back a bit, things have improved for Callum. I would suggest waiting a bit longer, it's never a quick fix, unfortunately. Adding back progesterone certainly won't harm him, and might be the reason his oestrogen has come down. I haven't heard of cortisol opposing oestrogen before. Has Dr Myhill suggested Callum take salt at all? The adrenals need sodium to function normally, plus it helps sleep too. Maybe he could try taking about 1/2tsp salt in some warm water at night and seeing if that helps him. Take care Wray

Sep 10, 2014
cortisol deficiency
by: Karen in Scotland

Thank you Wray for all your input. I'm going to go with gut feeling here ( felt the same almost ten months ago ) that we may just need to go a few more months with progesterone and obviously HC. If its not the HC that is bringing down the estrogen level, then it could very well have been those three months of Progesterone way back at the beginning of the year. I will go with this and see how Callum progresses. Im feeling very optimistic, albeit a tad nervous, for the first time since Callum was five years old!!! I cannot begin to tell you how wonderful it is to see an improvement in his mental health. I am simply overjoyed BUT keeping a lid on all of this as we haven't nailed the fatigue, hypoglycemia etc yet. Determined we do!

Once again,an enormous thank you for your selfless kindness .

Karen

Sep 11, 2014
cortisol deficiency
by: Wray

Hi Karen It's good to hear you sounding so positive. Do let me know how he progresses. Take care Wray

Oct 15, 2014
low Cortsiol
by: Karen Robertson

Hi Dr Wray,

I do feel a bit awful bothering you again. I am going to be getting in touch with the Functional Medicine Dr close to home here in Scotland and I am most grateful to you for this contact.

In the meantime, I have been trying to research the importance of Cortisol:DHEA RATIO. There is an abundant number of papers on this BUT they all refer to a HIGH Cortisol:DHEA Ratio and of course Callum's is LOW AGH!

Callums Salivary TOTAL daily Cortisol result was 20.00nmol/L (ref range 21-41).

His Salivary Mean Level DHEA was 0.45nmol/L(ref range 0.40-1.47).

I make this a Cortisol:DHEA RATIO of 0.023. I believe it should be nearer 0.088?

Before, I get carried away with thinking this low cortisol to DHEA Ratio may be responsible for not allowing Hydrocortisone to activate, I thought I'd ask your thoughts on the importance of this Ratio first?? Callum has had a five month trial of HC now up to 80mg HC and DHEA and NO change physically including Hypoglycemia symptoms, fatigue, poor cognition. Something is preventing HC from activating,I'm guessing. He is also on 2grains of Armour thyroid and has been for five months. I am thinking of trying the HC and Armour plus 100mg Progesterone cream twice a day WITHOUT the DHEA for a couple of months.

I do hope this finds you well. I really am most grateful for any further input. With enormous thanks, as always

Best wishes

Karen
(Scotland)

Oct 16, 2014
low Cortsiol
by: Wray

Hi Karen I wish I could help you, but I've not studied cortisol to any extent, and can't really help with reference to the ratio of that and DHEA. I think your suggestion of "trying the HC and Armour plus 100mg Progesterone cream twice a day WITHOUT the DHEA for a couple of months" is a good plan, let me know if it helps him. I did ask you to try Callum with a Ketogenic Diet, it really does help with blood glucose control. Please consider looking into it and let me know if it helps him. The higher fat in the diet will also help fatigue and cognition too, the brain does far better burning ketones rather than glucose. Take care Wray

Apr 10, 2015
Callum Robertson
by: Anonymous

Hi Dr Wray

I do hope this finds you well. I'm keen to know if the levels of 2nmol/L Progesterone in my younger son and Estrogen of 54 (not sure what this was measured in?) are in good balance/ratio? I am anxious to determine if he too has too much estrogen. I'm terribly sorry not to know what the estrogen was measured in but I was told the upper limit was 150.

I do hope you can give me some idea if this Progesterone:Estrogen Ratio is poor.

With enormous thanks as always

Very kind regards

Karen

Apr 10, 2015
Callum Robertson
by: Karen Robertson

Dear Wray

I think the Estrogen for my younger son was measured in pmols so that makes the estrogen 54pmol/l and the progesterone 2nmol/L. I hope this helps work out the Ratio?

I really am most grateful for all your help with this. I'm having a problem working out this ratio.
Just very keen to see if he has too much estrogen in relation to progesterone. He has just turned 17.

HUGE thanks once again.

Best regards
Karen

Apr 11, 2015
Callum Robertson
by: Anonymous

Hi Karen

His ratio of P:E2 is 37:1. For a woman this is very low. Please check our page onHormone Testing to find the ratio for men. It's not something I've followed. Did he try the ketogenic diet for his blood glucose control? Take care Wray

Apr 11, 2015
Callum's brother -
by: Karen Robertson

Dear Wray

I cannot thank you enough for replying and helping me with the Prog;Est Ratio. Thank you so much. This ratio is Callum's younger brother - With a Prog;Estrogen Ratio of 37:1 is administering about 100mg progesterone cream each day acceptable/wise move? My gut feeling is that it is but wanted to run this past you first.

I believe from the website it is a good idea to strive for a Ratio of 500/600;1 in men as well as women.

Just wanted to double check giving my younger son (who has just turned 17) progesterone at around 100mg may be of benefit. He has restless legs and I believe this is due to the Estrogen dominance?

I truly cannot thank you enough Wray for ALL your help thus far. You have been immensly helpful and kind. Thankyou. I do hope you are well.

Oh, the diet you suggested has worked well - many many thanks
Best regards

Karen Robertson



Apr 13, 2015
Restless legs
by: Wray

Hi Karen I almost always suggest men use about 100mg/day, rather than the 10mg/day normally advised. I've found too low a level barely works, or makes matters worse. It's difficult to tell what should be a good ratio. For instance I've found some women do well with a ratio of 400:1, whereas others need higher than 600:1, the same would apply to men too. I feel the best guide are symptoms, have they gone, are they worse, are they getting better etc. These are a few papers on restless legs, there is one on oestrogen here, here, here, here, here and here. There is some evidence that a lack of dopamine causes restless legs. The precursor to dopamine is tyrosine, this amino acid is also needed to make the thyroid hormones T4 and T3 and the stress hormones adrenaline and noradrenaline. It's essential to eat enough protein to keep levels up, alternatively a supplement can be taken. Very pleased the ketogenic diet has helped Callum! Thanks for the kind words Take care wray

Apr 14, 2015
Callum Robertson
by: Anonymous

Thank you Wray once again for all your selfless help and guidance. There aren't many who are so giving of their time and experience and I really cannot thankyou enough. I for one am certainly benefiting from bio identical progesterone. I do need pretty high doses each day (approx 800mg, 400mg twice a day)certain this is due to a genetic fault but a year and half on, it continues to work and keeps my hypoglycemia at bay along with pain in the adrenals and lower back. Wonderful!

If it hadn't have been for your website and kind support and guidance I would have been slightly afraid to go as high as I did and continue to do. No doubt about it, I've learnt if you give the body what it needs, it does the rest!

Enormous thanks to you, once again.

Karen (Scotland)

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