Let the Madness Begin...

by Michele

Hi Wray, I have signed up to your newsletter... I was hoping I could get your thoughts on my progesterone game plan, is that cool? I am a breast cancer survivor twice!, suffering from medium-level Chronic Fatigue, and I have had thrush for 3 years non-stop. I researched on the Internet and there is a connection between breast cancer, chronic fatigue and thrush - it's Estrogen Dominance.

My story
I had an elective surgery done a few weeks ago to remove my remaining breast and nipple and they found a little bit of cancer in my nipple - it had come back. It was 'In Situ' which means it didn't spread, but I will get more tests to make sure.

My game plan
I know I have estrogen dominance. I also took your test and I scored 26.

I have started on progesterone troches -when they are finished I will try the cream. I had already put in the script for troches when I read your website and other sites saying that with troches, you can lose up to 50% of the progesterone as it has to pass through the liver. I have decided to use up the troches in my phase 1 plan anyway, and then go on the cream.

I will take 200mg per night of the troches, then, banking on losing 50% of it to the liver absorption... I will take this amount every night for 2 months. I very much understand that an epic battle will ensue... between progesterone trying to fight its way back in, and estrogen, responding in kind. I can expect horrible symptoms, such as:

mood swings
heart palpitations
weight gain

Obviously, you don't necessarily get them all, but wow - that's madness...

When the troches are finished, I will consider lowering my dose of progesterone of course and use cream. So, at the end of October when I see my GP, I will first ask my GP for blood tests to test all hormones - i.e. what levels I have of the following: so then I can figure out how much cream to take thereafter:


I will then try the cream. How much should I take and should I take it every day, from then onwards?

I know once I go on cream to get saliva tests next time as blood hormone tests are for troche testing.

Maybe I will have to wait for those tests at the end of October for me to know how much cream to take and how often I will need to take it?

If you can spare some time to send me some of your thoughts, that would be great.

In the meantime, let the progesterone - estrogen battle commence and let the symptoms Madness Begin... I plan to beat Estrogen Dominance! Thanks.

Comments for Let the Madness Begin...

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Aug 30, 2010
Let the Madness Begin...
by: Wray

Hi Michelle What a story, I admire your courage in having elective surgery. You are right about oestrogen causing all the havoc in us. Yes it is a vital hormone, but as one obgyn put it, 'it's the angel of life, the angel of death'. You might like to read our page on Cancer and progesterone and HRT. Plus the one we have on Candida. Oestrogen is implicated in cancer and it does exacerbate candida. As for fatigue it does cause insulin resistance too, and one of the symptoms is extreme tiredness. You might like to see our page on Insulin Resistance. Troches are not the best delivery system, for more info please see our page on Progesterone application methods. The problem with one 'dose' or application is progesterone levels start falling after about 13 hrs, which makes for a seesaw recovery. You might experience the symptoms you've listed. I've found it depends on the amount of oestrogen present in the system, if high, I recommend using a high amount of progesterone to prevent it. A low amount will merely ramp them up. I generally recommend 100-200mg/day progesterone, but it's up to the individual and the symptoms involved. For instance hot flushes are dramatically reduced or stop if 400mg/day is used for 4-5 days. I'm not sure how old you are so can't advise on if you should use it daily or to follow your cycle. So please look at these pages on How to use progesterone cream and Peri-menopause. Tests are useful, as you can find the ratio of the progesterone to oestrogen by dividing the progesterone result by the oestrogen result. I've found to feel well the ratio should be 600:1 or over, progesterone must be the dominant hormone. The amount to use is dependant on symptoms, the more severe the more is needed. Stress also drops progesterone levels, so use more if stressed, as symptoms can come back again. So tests can't help with the amount to use. I have women with very severe symptoms such as debilitating hot flushes and heavy bleeding who use it hourly throughout the day. Take care Wray

Aug 30, 2010
by: Cheryl

If I were you I would also get the cream now and use at least 100 mg / day of the cream on top of using the troche. When we are pregnant our bodies make 500 mg or more progesterone per day.

I am also a breast cancer survivor, you can ask Wray how I combatted that. But if you have excess estrogen, you certainly want to combat it with lots of progesterone. The more progesterone you use in the beginning relieves many of the symptoms that are brought on by estrogen dominance.

Best Wishes

Sep 01, 2010
by: Wray

Hi Cheryl Bless you for your input! I think I'm overcautious about telling people to use very high amounts. As it is the 100-200mg/day I suggest shock some. But I've found if a very high amount is used initially you don't get the oestrogen dominance symptoms. I've learnt this by asking women with serious problems such a debilitating hot flushes (400mg/day), heavy continual bleeding (400-600mg) and endo (500mg) to go high. None of them had a worsening of their symptoms, only relief. It is, as you know, a question of trial and error. Take care Wray

Sep 09, 2010
re: Cheryl's advice for Madness Relief
by: Michele

Hi Cheryl

So far I upped my dose to 400grams per day, minus the %50 'loss rate' of troches that makes it 200mg I am getting. But some say as high as %80 is lost through troches but most say %50. The Chemist says troches are fine if you put them between your cheek and gum, and not under your tongue. Alot of different opinions, then.

What I might do is to finish off the troches at 400 grams per day, and try the cream separately/after that, at 400 grams per day, to see which one I like best. That way, the experiment is more 'scientific' if you like - the exact same dosage amount, so let's see what the effects are in both different scenarios to reduce estrogen dominance symptoms.

My 'experiment' should be finished by the end of October and I will update everyone on how I went. [I am also going to get the full CT and bone scans to see if I have any cancer anywhere else... just to make sure and to cover all bases].

Thanks for your kind support, Cheryl.

Sep 20, 2010
Cheryl's advice for Madness Relief
by: Wray

Hi Michelle I'll be interested to hear how your experiment went! Take care Wray

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