Horrormone Crazy

by Jane
(Indiana)

Age: 63. Hot Flashes day and night and fragmented sleep (Avg 5 hrs) for going on 7 years.
Third doc now. Have tried Progone,herbs,iodine,vitamins, minrals, homeopathics, topical progesterone,Prometrium, Vivelle dotpatch, and a few days ago, bioidentical testosterone and Biest vaginally,with oral progesterone 25mg time release. Had severe headache and worse sleeplessness with Prometrium 4 years ago, but current doc wanted to try the sustained release oral progesterone. After 3 days I was nearly crazy with worsening headache and no sleep. He said the only reason I can't take oral progesterone is that I might have an endometiosis implant in my brain. He said to stop the estrogens and testosterone,and progesterone but keep on DHEA. First doc 6 years ago (10/2007) checked only blood hormone levels and said mine was low. Started on Biest cream. Hot Fl cont. Second dr. checked saliva 5/28/2009 (Prog. 9127pg/ml,Estrodiol 14.3 pg/ml) and said I was in a bathtub of hormones and he wanted to titrate me down gradually.
Symptoms continued. Then he put me on Estridiol patch .075 biweekly and 30 mg topical prog. twice daily. Three mo. later saliva Prog 493 pg/ml, Estradiol 1.1pg/ml. I felt the best at this time than ever. Hot flashes almost gone. From then on, the symptoms came back, hormone levels on 11/30/11 Prog. 12,468 pmol/L, Estradiol 8.3 pmol/L. (I don't understand the switched measurements to pmol/L)
10/2012 I just switched to 3rd dr and now he tells me to get off all because I can't take the oral progesterone and too risky to take estrogens without it. He says urine hormone is the gold standard for hormone measurements. All my levels are low. (Pregnanediol 24 hr urine 0.39 micromol/24h,estradiol 0.5mcg/g Creat.,estriol 0.4 mcg/g Creat.) He has done lots of labs and thinks I have inflammation of gut which needs to be addressed, so I am on lots of supplements for that.

1.Is this wise to stop all prog. and est. at this time? The sleeplessness from 4am on continues and a few hot flashes day and night, though I could live with them as they are now. Have only been off all horms for a few days and in past when I've tried it, in a couple weeks, I am nearly crazy again.
2. Is there a way I could use those progesterone caps? I broke one and mixed with olive oil, but it is crystally like salt when I tried to rub it in ankles this morning.

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Oct 25, 2012
Horrormone Crazy
by: Wray

Hi Jane Love your subject line! It sums up the whole 'horror' of Peri-menopause and Menopause. To start with, oral progesterone is the least effective Delivery system, as "The liver and gut region removed a mean of 96 per cent of the progesterone entering these tissues" see here. But it leaves enough to stimulate oestrogen and cause severe Oestrogen Dominance. I recommend 100-200mg/day, more if symptoms are severe. For instance Hot Flushes normally respond to 400mg/day. If they don't it could be several factors involved, one of which is low GABA, which is worth trying if the progesterone hasn't helped. Another is a lack of vitamin D. Progesterone is excellent for Migraines, whereas oestrogen is an excitatory, inflammatory hormone. It's also helpful for sleep, in fact injecting it in large enough doses causes anaesthesia, see here, here and here. I don't believe any woman needs more oestrogen, as for DHEA and testosterone, these should never be given, see here, here, here and here for DHEA. Continued below.

Oct 25, 2012
Horrormone Crazy part 2
by: Wray

Hi Jane And here, here, here, here here, here, here, here and here for testosterone. I doubt very much you have endo in the brain! And fail to see why gut inflammation has any bearing on all this. Incidentally if you do have this, the best supplement is glutamine. Take 4000-8000mg/day, it heals ulcers too. It's the only substance the enterocytes lining the gut wall can use for energy, growth and repair. I always recommend opening caps and adding the contents to a small amount of cream, and applying that to the skin. The full benefit of the progesterone is then received. It can crystallise out, difficult, as the only way to get it to dissolve again is with heat. Injections do this too, but it's possible to put the vial into hot water, not with a cap of course, as the cap would dissolve leaving you a mess! If you added the contents to a cream, the crystals might not bother you too much. But it does mean you won't get all the progesterone, as it should be dissolved to enter the skin. Going cold turkey off any drug or hormone, can cause adverse side effects. I believe all you need is progesterone, and about 400mg/day. Take care Wray

Oct 25, 2012
Progesterone only
by: Jane

I know you keep saying all we need is progesterone. I started on Progon B by itself about 7yrs ago. H.F.& broken poor sleep cont. Then started drs who used bioidenticals & have been on some kind of estro (compounded in cream with or separate from progesterone since.Even every day,no break; since dr said as long as HF don't take a break. The last 2 yrs solid on E2 patch with prog. cream. Both drs have tried to add dhea, pregnenolone and now this one testosterone. I am opposed to adding this stuff to my body; but desperate for relief & don't know what else to do. I will try it your way & see what happens. The only thing I'm not sure about is 400mg seems very high. Doesn't a 35yr make around 30mg? Is 400 what a pg woman makes? Should our saliva results really be 3000? So you are saying even though both E2 & Prog very low, just prog. should be taken? Yes dr did put me on glutamine too & says I have significant bone loss which can be 100% turned around,K2,strontium,mg, ca, Thanks, Jane

Oct 25, 2012
more comments
by: Jane

I made a mistake and said the caps I had were 25mg. The progesterone caps are 50mg. Also drs keep giving me melatonin and it doesn't do any difference in sleep. I have tried 5HTP and it even makes me more sleepless. Current dr has me on 3mg melatonin and when I'm still not sleeping, he says go to 2 caps or up to 4 caps. I haven't done it. Feels like I am poking pills and supplements down and no change in HF or sleep.
My b/p is high too. The article on progesterone vs estrogen for HF makes sense. I just have a question on the amount of 400mg. Last 6 years since this started have been extremely stressful though I am a quiet person. Husb. and I have lost 3 parents, each had siblings with marriage breaks, moved furniture out of one parents' estate closing,etc.Also we keep an incontinent,mentally handicapped uncle in our home a week at a time every couple months. It's all harder to take with no sleep. drs keep saying I have to sleep, but it never happens. Also have a younger husband who needs only 5 hrs sleep and we enjoy traveling together, though it's more stress. If you are in uk, is it possible the mg amount is different in US? I do take GABA and thought it with mg makes a slight difference in sleeping. I also have a genetic defect in methylation, one gene MTHFR, so I know to use the correct B6,Folinic acid, and B12methylated. Thanks, almost convinced, Jane

Oct 25, 2012
Progesterone only
by: Wray

Hi Jane Well I've looked at many sites for info on Progon B, and none of them say how much progesterone the tablets contain. As progesterone is a fat based hormone, I can't see how they would benefit anyone. Particularly as you have to hold it under your tongue. Yes the buccal cavity does absorb it well, but without the fat? Moreover much is swallowed and then lost. Yes 400mg is high, certainly compared to any other site, book or doctor. Albeit some doctors are giving high amounts. We generally make during our reproductive years, 5-20ng/ml per day, some say up to 40ng/ml. This has lead everyone to think this is all we need, and therefore 20mg/day is prescribed. One thing to bear in mind, progesterone levels do not reach luteal phase levels with this amount, 40mg is not enough, I doubt even 80mg would raise it much. I go into this on our Progesterone Misconceptions page. Yes pregnant women do make over 400ng/ml per day, one reason why they feel so good. The 10% who don't haven't enough progesterone. Saliva tests show much higher levels than serum tests, high enough to make most doctors throw their hands up in horror, and make their patient stop cold turkey. Very unpleasant! But it's not the level of the hormone, but the ratio between them that is critical. Generally ratios are given that range from 100-500:1, which is daft. The range is far too large. I do wonder on what they base their ratios, the general public? Do they take into account how the woman is feeling at the time of the test. I can only speak from our own experience where we've found ratios of 600:1 and over are best, this from Saliva Tests we run periodically. They're conducted by a naturopath, who reports her patients all felt well once their ratios were up. I'm pleased the doc recommended glutamine. And be wary of the calcium, it's usually high in our diet, unless you don't eat any dairy, whereas magnesium is invariably too low. Magnesium is the most important co-factor for vitamin D too. Vitamin K is another overlooked but essential nutrient, it prevents calcification of the arteries, ensures calcium is deposited in bone, and has now been found to have anti-cancer affects. I would hope a higher level of progesterone will help your sleep, but it could be you lack salt. This taken at night often helps insomnia, see here. It's rather long, so put 'salt' into 'find' if you don't want to read it all. Continued below.

Oct 25, 2012
Progesterone only Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Jane Another paper suggests....."it is not a state of sleep loss, but a disorder of hyperarousal present both during the night and the daytime.", see here. Tyrosine can help the hyperarousal, it stops a mind in overdrive. You have a huge amount of stress, doubt I would be able to cope with that! Stress drops progesterone levels, it also drops vitamin D. But a lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. We also spend 90% of our time indoors now. Or covered with sunscreens when outside. So most people I ask to have tests done, come back with low levels, often very low. Progesterone is a vasodilator, so helps reduce BP. It also stimulates the secretion of nitric oxide, which is also a vasodilator. Low vitamin D causes the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system to kick in. This causes constriction of the arteries, plus aldosterone causes water retention, so BP goes up. Progesterone inhibits aldosterone. Stress causes excess adrenaline to be produced, adrenaline constricts blood vessels, so BP goes up. Progesterone is very calming so lessens the stress response, so adrenaline levels drop. Sugars, particularly fructose, can cause BP to go up, best to avoid them all. A cycle which can be broken. I forgot to explain in my last reply to you, that the States generally uses pg/ml and the rest of the world generally pmol/L. But as you live in the States, I can't explain why the lab who did the test used pmol/L, unless in keeping with the rest of the world. We do have a page on Hormone Testing, where I give the conversion. It varies with each different hormone or nutrient. Take care Wray

Oct 25, 2012
progesterone OD
by: Jane

Surely my past ratio of 4300:1 is not normal. Could we not say I was overdosed at that point? That's when I got scared of OD on Prog. I felt terrible. dr said go off prog. completely and still stay on patch. Felt better shortly, but back again. It took about 6 mo. to get the high prog out of my system.That's when I also quit that dr as I figured out he didnt know what to do next and was just playing around. Isorta get the same feeling with current dr, but he does spend more time with me than any other dr has and I think he is pretty right on with the gut stuff. What it has to do with everything is that when I can start absorbing nutrients better, won't everything be better? Might still need progesterone, but stress should be better handled. I thought GABA was the calming thing instead of Tyrosine. I have all kinds of stuff on stock I have tried. Dr said go off dairy and gluten. I can do the wheat thing, but not telling him I'm not stopping my wonderful grassfed raw goat and dairy.
Thanks, Jane

Oct 26, 2012
progesterone OD
by: Wray

Hi Jane I'm not sure where you got the 4300:1 ratio. The first ....5/28/2009 (Prog. 9127pg/ml, Estrodiol 14.3 pg/ml) is 638:1. The second ....Three months later saliva Prog 493 pg/ml, Estradiol 1.1pg/ml is 448:1, the third... 11/30/11 Prog. 12,468 pmol/L, Estradiol 8.3 pmol/L is 1524:1. What puzzles me is the result of 12,468 they gave you for progesterone, when you had only been using 60mg/day. And that was with oestrogen too. Although your last ratio was higher than those from our saliva tests, it's not the highest I've seen. I believe the reason you didn't too well, in spite of the ratio, is all the other treatments you'd been given. These still have to be eliminated from the system. You were made to chop and change treatments too often. I was referring to the hormones, when I said the gut had no hand in it, not any other supplement you might be taking. Gut dysbiosis plays a big role in malabsorption. GABA is calming, but tyrosine stops the excessive, often erratic thoughts some of us have. Grains are not good, but grass fed goat or cow dairy is. There's no need for you to try only the progesterone, the decision is up to you. Take care Wray

Oct 28, 2012
labs and progesterone
by: Jane

Here are a few more saliva tests; I didn't put them all down. 3/02/2010 estradiol 1.1 pg/ml, progesterone 4758 pg/ml. This is where I got the 4325:1 (I rounded it). The latest saliva 05/04/2012 estrogen 1.6 pg/ml, progesterone 90 which gives a ratio 56:1. They told me I was estrogen deficient as well as estrogen dominent.
No one can understand the 12,000 one. That dr said it was contaminated and he didn't believe it.Yet at this is the point he told me to go off progesterone completely and stay on patch. Then I felt better for awhile, but gradually the hot flashes came back. My current doc says prog. builds up in the saliva. Have you heard that? Anyway I would tend to agree that I need the progesterone now with that last low level. Maybe the progestereone will help the estrogen level. Don't know. I am currently opening the 50 mg. progesterone caps,mixing with coconut oil and slathering wherever. Also using some left over OTC creams I have. I don't have much to lose, the past 6-7yrs so horrible. HF not any worse currently, and maybe a tad better, so will cont. this for awhile and report. Think I definitely needed to get off the estrogens and testosterone. I will try the Tyrosine; how much would you suggest and when to take it? I appreciate your responses. I just found another web site saying somewhat like you; says for women to get off the estros and take progesterone. And cautions agains any estrogen in soaps--says lavendar in things is estrogenic. I do use some lavendar deoderant now. I haven't done soy for several yrs. The past few months with little progesterone, I believe has done a number on me.
Do you have any journal information etc of others recommending your amount of progesterone? I really have not heard it elsewhere. Maybe it is what you have found to be true in many women.

Oct 29, 2012
labs and progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Jane Well your last saliva test says it all! I have to agree with your doctor, that level was far too high coming from the little progesterone you were using at the time. Plus being on the oestrogen too. Although I can't fathom why he told you to come off the progesterone and stay on the patch. Applying the precautionary principle I suppose. They only test oestradiol, never oestrone the Menopause oestrogen. Saliva oestradiol ranges from 1.3-3.3 pg/ml in a menopausal women, yours falls within the range, so I would not call it low. We do have a page on Hormone Testing you could look through. Progesterone doesn't build up in the saliva, how can it we swallow it! Many doctors believe it builds up in the fatty tissue. I go into this aspect on our Progesterone Misconceptions page. I'm sure the last 6-7 yrs were horrible, with all that was thrown at you. And yes I'm pleased you've decided the extra oestrogen and testosterone are not needed, apart from the risks involved. We do have more info on tyrosine on our page about Natural Antidepressants. Start low with about 500mg/day, increasing gradually. Too much causes the same symptoms it's being used for. I would agree about cautioning people against eating foods high in phytostrogens, as these all have an oestrogenic affect. But feel many go overboard about avoiding all the phytoestrogens, we can't as it's in all food etc., even meat. So the essential oils I will continue to use, as the amount of oil is minute, therefore the oestrogenic affect will be even smaller! Food is another matter as we eat so much of it. Skin care products too, as we lather those on, particularly the sunscreens. The amounts I recommend came first from Dr Dalton, who gave me much advice. She used far larger amounts than I suggest, but never once did her patients get oestrogen dominance, or become ill from doing so. In fact they all got better. Whereas she scorned some of the studies done, as they used far too low an amount to have any affect. And therefore declared progesterone didn't work. Continued below.

Oct 29, 2012
labs and progesterone part 2
by: Wray

Hi Jane The bulk of my knowledge has come from studies that have worked. Dr Dalton used 400mg, 800mg and up to 2400mg/day for her patients with post natal psychosis, see here, over 1200mg/day are given to Traumatic Brain Injury victims, 200-600mg/day are given to women with recurrent miscarriages or after IVF, see our Pregnancy page. Up to 1200mg/day is given for severe PMS, see here. Although they did use oral progesterone which is the least effective Delivery system. You'll have to read the papers on the pages to see the amounts. So I've found, as Dr Dalton found, that the amount does have to be high to have any affect. Take care Wray

Oct 29, 2012
estrogens from other sources
by: Jane

Wray, Yes that was nuts, the dr telling me to go off progesterone and stay on patch. I see it now. Also the current dr taking me suddenly off everything about as daft. I'm still slathering on progesterone. Searching and found more inf. I don't know if it's acceptable to put the site on that I went to, so won't unless you tell me I can. He says watch everything put on skin as it absorbs 10 times more than even what we eat. I don't use sun screen, but he is mentioning about what laundry det. to use, shampoo, and said coffee makes estradiol levels increase 70%. I never drink coffee, but will go over this list of what shampoos, soaps, cleaners to use. Says herbal teas usually contain an estrogenic herb (I was using lots of these!) Says use nothing with parabens in it, no herbicides, pesticides around house. I don't. Thought I was doing good with essential oils, tea tree, lavender, peppermint, and making my owns soaps, laundry det. (but mine has borax) and he says that causes dog testicles to shrink.
I wanted to ask if you tell people to take 3 weeks on and one week off the progesterone, or use it solid?
Thanks, Jane

Oct 30, 2012
still reading
by: Jane

I've had Dr. John Lee's book for a long time which says he tries to get physiological amounts. Of course oral cuts it to 1/10th the amount, I've read; because of going through the liver. I'm trying to think of the difference between the ProgonB and oral progesterone. Why does the oral progesterone work with no fat base?
Anyway I've decided to give this 50mg oral progesterone one more trial since I'm not on the estrogens. I've been playing around using up my OTC progesterone creams since reading. I've not tried the oral with no estrogens-- as I've been on some kind of estrogen since the beginning of this whole nightmare. I would only be getting about 5 mg of progesterone anyway, right? No one seems to understand why I get headaches with it, but one of the sheets I printed said that could be a side-effect. I will give it one more 3 day trial and see what happens with no estrogens and my other OTC progesterone stuff. Can you explain the difference between yam extract and progesterone? What is your progesterone made from? Some use the word "micronized" and I don't know what that means either. Are creams OTC micronized?
Thanks Jane

Nov 01, 2012
estrogens from other sources
by: Wray

Hi Jane It is a mire of information out there! One reason I did a page on Progesterone Misconceptions. Hopefully this will help with some of your questions. I know many doctors believe we should have a physiological 'dose', but even 40mg/day topical progesterone does not raise it to luteal phase levels. I doubt 80mg/day would. Of course you can put the web site up, the more info everyone gets the better. I would agree with what he has to say, there are now over 100 oestrogen mimics in our environment, see this excellent website Our Stolen Future. Many herbs are oestrogenic, so best to avoid those that are. Although I still use them in cooking, but the amount is so small I'm not concerned. And no I don't agree with the one week off, 3 weeks on. Obviously if a woman still has her cycle it's best to follow it. Unless symptoms are severe, in which case I advise them to use it daily till stable. And in Peri-menopause when our cycle becomes so erratic it's impossible to follow, I recommend using it daily, ignoring any bleeding. The same goes for menopause too, there is no cycle. I've used it daily for over 15 years now, and can still feel if I haven't used enough. I feel the Progon B could be classified as an oral progesterone, as it has to be taken by mouth. Addmittedly you hold it there, but much would get swallowed. I don't feel the 50mg/day will be enough, in fact it could make things worse for a bit. As it will stimulate oestrogen, even if you're not taking it. But see how you get on. If you get headaches with the progesterone, this would be explained by the oestrogen stimulating affect it has. We do have a page on Migraines you could look through. A trial of 3 days is nowhere near enough! It usually take about 3 months before progesterone finally suppresses any oestrogen and symptoms reduce. And that's on a far higher amount you intend using. Continued below.

Nov 01, 2012
estrogens from other sources Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Jane Cholesterol is the starting point for the steroid hormones made naturally in animals, including humans. Plants such as the soy bean, Dioscorea species of yams, fenugreek, sisal, calabar bean, some lilies, yucca, some solanum species, maize and many more contain phytosterols. Some of which are stigmasterol, diosgenin, beta-sitosterol, campesterol, hecogenin, sarsasapogenin, solasodine. As these plant sterols have a similar molecular structure to cholesterol, they are used as starting points for the synthesis of progesterone. So the synthesis ends with a progesterone molecule, or molecules, as it’s made in large quantities. It is only progesterone and can only be progesterone. 'Yam' extracts use the sterols, they don't contain progesterone. We use a progesterone synthesised from yams. Micronised just means very small, i.e. each crystal is a micron in diameter. It's a meaningless term when applied to a progesterone product, as the progesterone has to be dissolved in the cream. If the crystals were just added to the cream you'd get an exfoliant! Like so many of these terms, they're used to impress people. Take care Wray


Nov 01, 2012
Progesterone
by: Jane

Well I tried it one more night and yesterday was HORRIBLE. Headache all day, felt awful; no energy; unable to focus. Have you ever heard of anyone not being able to take oral progesterone before? I can't figure out why I'm so weird.Could something be going on in my liver? I had hepatitis as a kid. I am quite literally NOT going to try that again. Yes I've noticed the exfoliant feeling trying to rub on that capsule. You said I had to melt it. Is your progesterone then considered not bioidentical or natural since it is sythesized? Current dr said if I have headaches with the oral and have endometrial implant in brain, then topical would have the same effect. I don't get that, as I've been using topical progesterone of some kind the whole time. Sorry to ask so many questions, but they are honest. Just wish I knew what was going on in my situation. Site is www.womhoo.com
Appreciate your responses, Jane

Nov 02, 2012
Progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Jane It was as I said to you, that you would probably feel worse. The amount of progesterone you were getting via the oral was enough to stimulate oestrogen. Please read the info on our Oestrogen Dominance again, it's all explained there. It happens to all women who use too little. If oestrogen is high, as yours would be due to the extra you were taking, the ratio becomes skewed and all hell can break loose. All progesterone is synthesised! As I explained in my previous reply. The plant sterol is extracted, this is then synthesised in a lab to progesterone. I doubt you have endo implants in the brain. If too little topical progesterone is used it will also cause unpleasant symptoms, including headaches, which is why I suggest 100-200mg/day and more if symptoms are severe. Thanks for the site. Take care Wray

Nov 22, 2012
Slathering it on
by: Jane

It's been about 12 days now that I've slathered on what I can get until I get yours.The order link kept saying out of stock. I'm going through a tube of the best I can find about every 4 days. I don't know how much I'm doing, I just put it on every time I have a hot flash which are still the same--horrific and several times daily. Have you heard of the MTHFR defect? I'm wondering if it could have an effect on my symptoms as it is defective in b vitamin enzyme. I am also cold all the time at the core, fingers, feet--then hot flashes on top of that. I take epsom salt baths which feel nice, and warms me but then start sweating again soon. I have to be losing whatever a person loses with all these years of sweating.
I'm also using fermented cod liver oil with the thought that maybe I'm losing oil when I sweat. When I slather the progesterone on during a hot flash, the progesterone quickly vanishes like it is being sucked up through the skin. Both the other dr site and you say give it 3 months, so I'm a long way from that. I'm on a gram of Armour, but I can't really tell that anything is doing anything, except my ankles seem a little more trim since stopping the estrogen.

Nov 22, 2012
Slathering it on
by: Jane

I'm slathering on the best cream (progesterone) I can find until yours arrives as the site says out of stock for a long time. IT's been 12 days and I'm going through lots of tubes as I'm putting it on every time I have a hot flash.
1.
Have you heard of the MTHFR genetic defect or working with anybody on it? I'm wondering if that might be some of my problem as I've never heard of anybody going through this and docs aren't helping me.
2.
Also I am always cold to the core, with the hourly hot flashes (I don't know how to explain that, it sounds impossible). epsom salt baths help and mke me feel warmer, but I'm soon sweating again with exertion or whatever.
Both you and other site says give it 3 months, so I'm a long way from that. It seems like when I slather it on during hot flash, it is quickly sucked up into my body. No oiliness whatever. Will keep going. I have to be losing whatever goes with sweat. I use celtic salt in water and powdered vit. c, but probably not enough of that either.

Nov 24, 2012
Slathering it on
by: Wray

Hi Jane Sorry about the stock out, we do have them from time to time. I don't have any evidence that the MTHFR gene would influence hot flushes. The coldness is caused by oestrogen, it lowers temps. Info can be found on the hot flush page I gave you. I would avoid cod liver oil, as it contains too high an amount of vitamin A, and very little vitamin D. Vitamin A inhibits vitamin D, see here, here, here and here. Please have a vitamin D test done, often a lack of this affects the thyroid adversely, see here, here and here. Consider taking the GABA I mentioned earlier, that has helped some women with hot flushes. Take care Wray

Nov 26, 2012
More comments
by: Jane

In your video, you said you started making the cream yourself in your kitchen. How is that possible? Can I do this in US? Do I have to be a dr. or pharmacist? I have tried to order your cream and have trouble with the site, then it says it's out of stock, now I'm waiting and using up more cream expensively. I don't know if I can trust from where yours comes from to get to me in time or will I need to order some more from the states of the best I can do.
The hot flashes and poor sleep continue. Also chin hair I've been dealing with for long time. Idon't feel well and have headache, but it's still not the deep one I had with Prometrium oral. I'm sooo tired of fighting this stuff. The last time I wrote on here it said I didn't put in the scam word correctly and I did three times. I do have tooth/jaw ache and lots of dental work to be done tomorrow. Hoping this will help some sypmptoms.

Nov 27, 2012
More comments
by: Wray

Hi Jane It seems most things are started in a kitchen or garage! Hiring workshops or labs, or setting one up is too costly for people with an idea and no money. It took us over 3 months working every night after work to arrive at a formula which pleased us. It's changed several times over the past 15 years as new natural raw materials have been produced. So yes you can do it, you don't have to be a pharmacist or dr. Our cream comes from the fulfilment house we have in Michigan, it usually takes 2-4 days to reach someone in the States. There is stock available now. Take care Wray

Dec 09, 2012
Continuing on
by: Jane

Dec 9 2012, several days later.I finally rec'd Natpro. If I use a tsp/ twice day, a tube is quickly gone. So I'm done with one tube. Guess I need to stock up on this stuff seriously if I'm to continue. The HF are still severe and hourly. Sleep is still poor after 1 or 2am. I have no idea what my numbers are, am just going by symptoms which never really get better. Am finishing reading the GAPS diet book and impressed that this might be some of my problems. So you are thinking I need to continue using a tube of Natpro every 6 days for at least 3 mo. to see what happens? Is this what people are doing who you have heard from? Jane

Dec 11, 2012
Continuing on
by: Wray

Hi Jane Glad the cream finally arrived. The 10ml you're using (2tsp) is only giving you 330mg/day, I've found 400mg/day to be the minimum needed. This would mean a tube is finished in 5 days. Yes it is a lot, but I've not found less works, well it would eventually. In some, the hot flushes have gone in 4-5 days using that amount, with some it does take longer. I wish I could tell you how long, but can't. And I know you are taking GABA, that doesn't seem to have helped. So maybe you could consider increasing it slightly. Please use the progesterone each time you feel a hot flush coming, not twice a day. You might find that helps. Have you had a test done for vitamin D? Please do if not, it could be yours is too low, and a low level reduces the benefits of progesterone. Many women have found getting their level up high, persistent symptoms go, in spite of high amounts of progesterone, see here, here and here. Please avoid all sweet foods, as a drop in blood glucose also causes hot flushes. Stress causes hot flushes, it stressed please consider looking into EFT, a remarkable therapy. I would hope you don't have to use that high an amount for so long, but as I said, I have no idea how long it will take. Take care Wray

Dec 11, 2012
Vit D
by: Jane

My Vit D was 55 in July 2012. I"m taking 4000 Bio D emulsion plus 1 tsp fermented cod liver oil.
I supposed I need to keep ordering the Natpro then. Jane

Dec 13, 2012
Vit D
by: Wray

Hi Jane Your level is not too bad, but should be between 70-100ng/ml. I would ask you to increase your dose to 5000iu per day, the minimum advised. I would also avoid the cod liver oil, as it contains too much vitamin A, which inhibits the uptake of vitamin D, see here, here, here and here. Take care Wray

Sep 19, 2013
Questions about applying cream
by: Jane

Can Natpro be applied vaginally or rectally, or under the tongue?

Sep 22, 2013
Questions about applying cream
by: Wray

Hi Jane It can be applied anywhere. It is quite bitter, it's the progesterone. I've used in in my mouth if sore, a friend has too. All the ingredients are safe. But it's best if applied to the skin. In the vagina if that's inflamed and/or dry. Or there are uterine problems like heavy bleeding, pain, pregnancy, as most of the progesterone is sequestered in the uterus if applied vaginally, see here, here, here, here and here. Which leaves little for other problems. If in the mouth it should be regarded as a temporary measure just for a sore mouth. Much of it gets swallowed and subsequently destroyed by the gut and liver, see here. In the rectum if it's inflamed or there are piles, it's very effective for those. Take care Wray

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