Have been using Natural Serenity Cream for 3 months

by Karenina
(UK)

Three years ago I had the hysterectomy but I still have the ovaries. Soon after my personality changed and I became very moody and irritable, tired all the time, poor memory and very painful breasts without a break for the last three years.

Lately it became worse and I went to see my GP for a blood test to check my hormonal levels and I was told I am at the perimenopausal stage etc. Three months ago I tried the natural progesterone Serenity Cream from a company almost three months ago. Started using it on a dose of 1/8 teaspoon, developed very painful joints and all the other symptoms worsened. In the second month things started to settle down and in the third month I found my symptoms were returning but not as bad as I had before I started using the cream. So I upped the amount from 1/8 of a teaspoon to 1/4 of a teaspoon and soon the symptoms went away again. When I mentioned this to one of their staff on the phone to check that this was okay they immediately told me to reduce it to 1/8 of a spoon which I did. My symptoms returned with a vengeance and my joints are so painful I cannot sleep well. I have never had this particular problem before either and it is starting to worry me now. I feel as if I have been messed around. I would like to try your Natpro cream but feel I need some guidance especially as I don't have a womb, have my ovaries, not menopausal yet but at the perimenopausal stage.

Please help me. I am worried at what is happening to me. The joint pain is terrible and all the symptoms have returned once again. Is it possible I am allergic to any of the ingredients in the Serenity Cream that may be causing the joint pain? Thanking you so much for your help in advance.

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Have been using Natural Serenity Cream for 3 months

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Sep 06, 2010
 Re: Using Serenity for 3 months
by: Anonymous

You can't overdose on progesterone. So, why they would have you decrease to 1/8 t is down right ignorance. I suggest you read some of the medical journals by Dr. Katharina Dalton (she passed away in 2004). She was a pioneer with progesterone treatment, she coined the term PMS. You will read some fascinating details about the treatment with progesterone and it will ease your mind about a small dose of 1/8 t. How many MG are in that dose? Like 25? That would be enought to aggrevate your symptoms and leave you in a state of estrogen dominance endlessly. When I started my journey I also used serenity however the dose was so low I would have to bathe in it. I have to take a very high dose of progesterone (days 1-14 300 mg/day and days 14-menses 800mg)and it makes a huge difference in my life. I am so deficient I was becoming suicidal - my mood shifted with my cycle days 20-25 being the worst. Which makes sense because that is when I was suppose to make large amounts of progesterone to counter estrogen and it wasn't happening. Good luck! And certainly dont be afraid of increasing your dose to 100-200 mg.
Sep 06, 2010
 using natural serenity cream for 3 months
by: Kay

I don't think the 1/8th teaspoon is near enough as depending on how much is in the container it could be only 20mg or even less. I am taking 100mg per day for uterine fibroids and intend on increasing that. I would think that if you tried 1/4 and your symptoms went away that you should stay with that dose. I am not a doctor but your body is pretty good at telling you how much you need.
Sep 06, 2010
 Have been using Natural Serenity Cream for 3 months
by: Wray

Hi Karenina A hyst can throw us into turmoil, even if the ovaries are retained. The pain, plus a worsening of symptoms when starting the progesterone is very common. You should have been warned about it. Please see our page on Oestrogen Dominance. The 1/8th tsp would only be giving you about 13mg progesterone, to my mind far too low. This would merely stimulate oestrogen and worsen symptoms, even the 1/4tsp is too low. Dropping back to the 1/8th tsp would have resulted in very bad symptoms, as you would be getting only half the amount you were, sending you back into oestrogen dominance. I generally recommend 100-200mg/day, this often resolves things quickly, although occasionally more is needed. You did the right thing increasing the amount you were using when you found your symptoms returning, progesterone should never be used as if it's a 'dose', but always according to symptoms. If bad more is needed, it's easy enough to reduce slowly once they've been helped. But it must be slowly, or you will have symptoms return. The ovaries do decline after a hyst, and normally after 3 years they are no longer producing much, which would account for the worsening of symptoms now. Please see our page on Peri-menopause. Stress also drops progesterone levels so more is needed if going through stress. I suggest rubbing the cream on your sore breasts, it's very helpful, please see here, here and here. Progesterone will help the tiredness to, I had that and it resolved quickly for me, I hope it does for you too. Take care Wray
Sep 10, 2010
 You Can Never Have Enough Progest.
by: Tanya

Hi, Karenia totally understand how you were feeling. Had a hysterectomy 3 years ago, ovaries left in tact. (hormones left in tatters). Was feeling exhausted and tired all the time, NO libido in fact I felt like I had no life. Just to let you know have a 5 yr old and and 11 yr old girls who keep me very busy. You CAN NOT OVERDOSE ON PROGESTERONE it will just make you very lethargic, won't cause any long term harm. I am now taking two and a half teaspoons of NATPRO a day. One teaspoon in the morning and one and a half at night, as due to lack of progesterone I have horrible insomnia unless I take this amount. You will initially suffer some estrogen dominance side affects, but if you persist, you will overcome this and go on to feel like a million dollars. It has taken me since May 2010 to get to this great time, wish I had discovered this cream 6 years ago, would not have gone down the path of having surgery.
Sep 13, 2010
 Now starting to feel sick and very tired all the time is this normal?
by: Karenina

Hi Wray,

Thank you so much for your kind response. I have done what you have sugguested by increasing the amount of natural progesterone cream from 1/8 to 1/4 spoon again morning and night. I was starting to feel better but one and a half weeks later I have been waking up feeling physically weak, a bit of nausea and an awful sense of tiredness as if I have been drinking all night. It is slowly getting worse. As far as my moods are concerned it is much better now. Does it mean I am taking too much again? What do you feel I need to do now? I am just about to have a 6 day break starting tomorrow and then I will be at the start of the fourth month. I would really appreciate your advice please.

Many thanks for your wonderful help.

Best wishes,

Karenina
Sep 13, 2010
 Forgot to mention to you
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray,

I forgot to add to my previous most recent comment that apart from extreme tiredness my breast pain is getting worse as well.

Thanks again for your help.

Best wishes,

Karenina
Sep 15, 2010
 Getting Acne on my chest!
by: Karenina

Hi Wray,

I just thought I should mention that on the second day of the 6 days off cream...I have noticed a little less pain in my breasts now but I am getting acne on my chest for the first time since my teenage days! Heavy tiredness is getting worse though but I feel so good and positive. Please see previous comment sent on 13th September. I would really value your opinion on my last comment and this one as well please. I just want to get the right balance of progesterone please. I am so grateful to have someone to talk to and for all the advice you can give me.

Many thanks Wray.

Karenina
Sep 20, 2010
 You Can Never Have Enough Progest.
by: Wray

Hi Tanya Thanks for giving this advice, pleased you've been helped! It does take time as you point out and a high amount is needed initially. Progesterone is a potent anxiolytic and sedative, so the lethargy is normal, but far better than having ones 'hormones in tatters'! It's easy enough to reduce once symptoms have settled down. And you are so right, the surgery would probably not have been necessary, it saddens me how many opt for it in desperation, not knowing there is an alternative. Take care Wray
Sep 20, 2010
 Now starting to feel sick and very tired all the time is this normal?
by: Wray

Hi Karenina As I said even the 1/4tsp is too low, it would be giving you about 26mg/day. Twice a day as you are now using would give you 52mg. It really needs to be in the 100-200mg range. So you would need to use at least double what you are using now, ie 1 tsp per day. If you use the amount Tanya is you would be getting about 400mg plus. This would require 4 tsp of the cream you are using. The weakness or myopathy is caused by oestrogen, progesterone is very effective for myopathy. The nausea and tiredness is also caused by oestrogen, very similar to early pregnancy symptoms. It's caused by the small amount of progesterone you are using stimulating oestrogen, for more on this please see our page on Oestrogen Dominance. This also explains why your breast pain is getting worse, you really do have to use more to overcome the oestrogen dominance. It's essential to make progesterone dominant. As you've had a hyst there is no need to have a break, not unless you want one. Please try increasing the cream as I suggest. Take care Wray
Sep 20, 2010
 Re Your dose of Natural Serenity
by: Anonymous

You dose is too low...1/4 teaspoon is too low of a dose. Your probably getting around 25 mg of progesterone and that is just aggrevating your estrogen dominance symptoms (sore breasts, fatigue, emotional etc). I re-read Wray's comments as well. She also said 1/4 and 1/8 t was far too low of a dose. I personally would increase the dose to 100-200mg/day to push through the estrogen dominance and see how you feel. It's possible depending on your symptoms and test levels, that may not be sufficient either. For me, 100-200mg is far too low...finding your correct dose takes some time. You have to track and pay close attention to your body. The body speaks to us...we just have to listen :-) Good luck!!
Oct 05, 2010
 Very worried with the pain in all my joints
by: Karenina

There is something I am very worried about. Before I started using any natural progesterone cream I only had pain in the joints of the big toes and slight problems with my right hip for the best part of my life. Otherwise I was in good health. Since I started using the Serenity Natural Progesterone cream almost four months ago I started to experience pain in all my joints all over my body and it is getting slowly worse. I have never had this problem before I started using the natural progesterone cream. I have increased the use of cream to 100mg a day and it is not improving at all. I am very frightened that something is very wrong. Is it possible I am allergic to the cream? Please help me Wray. Thanking you for your time and for all your advice. Best wishes.
Oct 06, 2010
 Getting Acne on my chest!
by: Wray

Hi Karenina The drop in progesterone when going off it, has caused oestrogen and testosterone to rise again. Ironically this has relieved the pressure on your breasts, please see this page on Oestrogen Dominance. Testosterone is implicated in acne, please see our page on Acne. A disturbed blood glucose can cause it too, oestrogen is implicated in this too. Please see our page on Insulin Resistance. As you've had a hyst, there is no need to take a break, only if you feel you need to. I never did, even going through peri-menopause with regular cycles, I found all my symptoms coming back if I did. And please increase the amount you are using, you are only getting about 56mg/day, half the minimum I recommend. And please have a vitamin D test done, most of us have far to low a level, please see the Vitamin D council website. A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. Take care Wray
Oct 06, 2010
 Re Your dose of Natural Serenity
by: Wray

Hi there Thanks for your words of encouragement! I'm interested you find 100-200mg too low, and had the courage to use more. There are so many dire warnings about high amounts, and yet I've found none of them true. No one would get oestrogen dominance if they started off on a very high amount initially. It would make progesterone dominant very quickly, which is what we need. There's far too much oestrogen in the environment now, for more info please see this excellent website Our Stolen Future. Take care Wray
Oct 09, 2010
 Very worried with the pain in all my joints
by: Wray

Hi Karenina No I don't think you are allergic to something in the cream. Please remember it can take 3-6 months before all symptoms calm down, you've only been using it for 4 months. And not until recently have you increased the amount to 100mg/day, you can't have been using this for more than a month in fact. The low amount you were using would have caused an increase in painful symptoms, as explained on the oestrogen dominance page. And now you have increased to 100mg it's going to take a few weeks before that can take affect. All I can ask you to do is persevere. And please read that comment from the 20th Sept, where she says "For me, 100-200mg is far too low...finding your correct dose takes some time. You have to track and pay close attention to your body" She is so right, it does take time to find the correct amount. Take care Wray
Oct 15, 2010
 Taking 6 days off progesterone cream a month
by: Karenina

Hi Wray, thanks for all your continuing support. It means a great deal to me. I am pleased to tell you I am not experiencing joint pains or breast pain now thanks to your advice.

I have read on several sites that one must use the cream for 26 days and then take 6 days off every month. I understand one has to give the receptors a break from the p. cream. As you may remember I had a hysterectomy three years ago but I still have my ovaries. I do find that when I take six days off each month I get very down and by the time I start using the cream it takes me a while to feel good again. I believe you mentioned that it is not necessary for me to stop using the cream at all but I worry that eventually my receptors will not be working if I don't take six days off each month. Did you say you use the cream all the time? Have you not found the need to increase the amount of cream because your receptors are not working so well now?

Thanking you for wonderful help. Best wishes.
Oct 21, 2010
 Taking 6 days off progesterone cream a month
by: Wray

Hi Karenina So pleased the info has helped, and even more pleased you have no more pain! Yes I do use it daily, usually more than twice a day too. And no I have not increased the amount I use in the 14 years I've been using it! Only when stressed, as that drops progesterone levels. Evidently you should use it daily too, this on and off you're going through is not helping you get better. Once you are stable you can experiment with taking a break, it's up to you. The body knows how to metabolise progesterone, so if there is more than it needs, it will remove it. In case you're not aware of it, progesterone activates oestrogen receptors, and oestrogen activates progesterone receptors. One thing everyone forgets, our receptors are being activated by oestrogen all the time. It's in our food, water, air and the skin care we all use. For more info on the endocrine disruptors, or oestrogen mimics, please see this excellent site Our Stolen Future. So please try using the cream daily and only when you are stable try taking a break. But only if you feel the need. Take care Wray
Oct 23, 2010
 Don't know what is going on...please help me. (6th Month)
by: Karenina

Hi Wray, I am very frightened I am going to lose my partner. Since increasing the amount to over 100mg a day in the last 6 weeks and having a break from the P cream for 6 days I have become a very nasty person, rowing with partner every single day. I have become so bad I am actually starting to hate him and this is not me at all. Yes, the pain with my breasts and joints have gone away but why am I getting worse with my moods? It was going so well. I am so tired with continuous tinnutus in my ears. No matter how much I sleep it is never enough. My partner wants me to leave beause I am hell to live with! I know you suggested that I don't take a break for a while but I am really losing it now. So sorry Wray but I am pleading for your help here. I don't know what I would do without you. (I have ordered three tubes of Naptro three days ago to see if a change of cream may help me).

I feel so alone in this.

Many thanks for all you do for me.
Oct 23, 2010
 Just remembered I did start taking Cod Liver Oil 500mg a day in the last three weeks
by: Karenina

Hi Wray, sorry for being so forgetful! I have started taking cod liver oil 500mg a day in the last three weeks...would this explain the worsening of my symptoms explained in previous message sent today, 23rd October, re 6 months where I am a nightmare to be with now? Have I done the wrong thing? Should I stop taking the cod liver oil? Or is it something else? God my partner looks ill, having to put up with my anger 24 hours a day. I wish I had some where else to stay while I am trying to deal with all of this. I don't want to lose him. I am frightened because I am not in control and don't know how to move forward with this. I just want to cry...sorry Wray, please help me. Thanking you from the bottom of my heart. (using just over 100mg of n cream again. I am scared of using any more now)
Oct 23, 2010
 Maybe you need to look at other possibilities
by: Eve

I have been following your thread and have made several comments. I wonder if you have had your saliva tested? How about your testosterone level? It is possible like me, 100mg is no where near enough dose. Depending on your genetics and health/lifestyle your dose may be too low even at 100mg. Increasing progesterone doesn't cause irritability it's quite the contrary. I personally take it all month long as well. So that in itself is an indicator, something else is playing a role to your mood swings. If you aren't able to afford a saliva test (I am not aware of any insurance that covers it - at least in the US that is), have your blood tested for free testosterone and total testosterone, progesterone, thyroid (tsh, free and total t3 and free and t4) vitD, glucose levels, cholesterol/triglicerides. You may be dealing with more hormonal imbalance than what initially meets the eye. Again, you have to pay very close attention to your body and what it is saying through the symptoms you have. The endocrine system is very complex and having a hysterectomy puts a tremendous strain on the body's normal funtion. Just because one removes ovaries/uterus doesn't stop the cycle as it is controlled in the brain by the hypothalmus and pitutary gland. Keep tracking things - don't change too much at once and get some lab work if you can! Good Luck!
Oct 25, 2010
 Thanks Eve
by: Karenina

Hi Eve,

Thanks for your kind comments. I cannot afford any of these tests in the UK. I did have the blood test to begin with and it indicated that I am at the perimenopausal stage. I don't think it was helped by the fact that I had a poor start to the treatment concerning the use of natural progesterone cream. By the way I still have my ovaries though but I have had many symptoms of estrogen dominance since the hysterectomy; with each year passing the symptoms became worse.

In any case my partner has decided he wants us to split up...so I guess it is all in vain now. I feel awfully sad about it.

Thanks again for your kind help. Karenina
Oct 26, 2010
 Don't know what is going on...please help me. (6th Month)
by: Wray

Hi Karenina Please don't take a break! Please. Each time you do, your progesterone level drops, this causes oestrogen to rise, the ratio therefore becomes unbalanced again. It's imperative progesterone becomes the dominant hormone, you are not allowing this to occur. If at a later stage you really feel you need a break, take one, but not while you are trying to increase your progesterone level. From saliva tests we run we've found to feel well the ratio of progesterone to oestrogen should be over 600:1. By taking a break your progesterone plummets again. It's no wonder you feel so awful. It can take 3-6 months for progesterone to settle down and symptoms abate, but only if a high enough amount is used. We have no way of telling why the body chooses one symptom over another. So although your breast and joint pains have gone which shows it's working, you are still left with mood swings and tiredness. So judging by your symptoms I don't believe the 100mg is sufficient. You say you've bought some Natpro, I suggest you continue using the same amount of cream as you have been, ie ±5ml. This will give you ±170mg/day progesterone. But please don't take a break! Take care Wray
Oct 26, 2010
 Just remembered I did start taking Cod Liver Oil 500mg a day in the last three weeks
by: Wray

Hi Karenina The cod liver oil could well be a cause. It contains far too high a level of vitamin A, this destroys vitamin D, unlike beta carotene. Please see http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/newsletter/2008-december.shtml
here. A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone, this research was only published this year. So a drop in vitamin D would have the same affect. I normally ask everyone who writes to me from the UK to have a blood test done for vitamin D, but I see I've forgotten to ask you, remiss of me. Please have one, as most people living there have too low a level. A lack causes too many things to go into here, but it does affect mood hugely. As evidenced by increased depression during the winter months. Don't be scared about using more progesterone, you've seen the comments made by others on this page, one saying she finds 100-200mg insufficient. You have to find the level which suits you best. Looking back the higher amount has helped you, as your joint and breast pain have gone, whereas on the low amount it became worse. Please consider using it hourly too, each time you feel your mood changing rub some on. And please have that vitamin D test done. Be aware that the minimum level in the blood should be 50ng/ml or 125nmol/L, and not 30ng/ml or 75nmol/L as the lab will probably tell you. For more info please see the Vitamin D council website. Take care Wray
Oct 26, 2010
 Maybe you need to look at other possibilities
by: Wray

Hi Eve Bless you for your encouragement. Karenina does need to listen to her body, evidently she's not using enough progesterone, as it's helped in some areas but not in others. A hyst creates turmoil in the body, as mixed messages are now being received by the hypothalamus. Take care Wray
Oct 26, 2010
 Just about hanging in there
by: Karenina

Hi Wray, So sorry I was feeling very depressed especially when my partner asked me to leave him. Thankfully I convinced him it was my hormones making me the way I am. The trouble is it has been bad for almost 3 and half years now! So I am not surprised he feels so close to the idea of leaving me. I feel as if I am losing him slowly but surely.

I am trying so very hard. Since my last comment to you a few days ago I realise I do need to increase the amount of your natural progesterone cream but I don't want to do this until my order has arrived. Also, the 6 day break per month really does not suit me. After a break it takes almost two to three weeks before I return to the level I was at before the break. So I am not going to take a break again.

In the last few days I have started taking 650mg of Inositol, 500mg of Slow release Vitamin C, 400 iu of Vitamin E, 30mg of Ginkgo Biloba for poor memory, and 525mg of Cod Liver Oil. I have yet to buy some N-Acetyle Cysteine. I thought about the Vitamin D and bought 500mg tablets to take one a day. I do get very low during the winter season and I am indoors most of the time doing my art throughout the year. So I thought I would give those a try. I noticed Flaxseed Oil is mentioned a lot in other comments. Is it better than Cod Liver Oil?

I do hope I am doing the right thing. Please tell me what you feel I need to do or whether you think I need some other tablets. I would be so lost without your help. Thanking you with all my heart.
Oct 26, 2010
 Progesterone cream making me sleepy??
by: Susan

I've been advised hysterectomy (49 years old and in perimenopause) due to fibroids and adenomyosis. I'm very resistant as he said he will probably remove my one remaining ovary.

I have been using an Estrogen patch to ease my hot flushes but because I have so much trouble with progesterone (synthetic) - I haven't supped with that. I realised I need to though so I ordered serenity cream and right from day one it is making me literally drop off to sleep in the middle of anything. Especially especially after eating!! Tonight I feel asleep and woke 2 hours later with my head on my keyboard!! I don't feel I have any estrogen dominance symptoms (apart from fairly heavy menstrual bleeds) and of course the estrogen supp has probably been feeding the fibroid - but I feel absolutely terrible NOT on it. Hot flushes 24/7, low libido, racing heart and heart skips- all this has settled since being on the patch but natrually I know I can't take unopposed estrogen forever. I'm using the serenity as per the instructions and can't believe such a teeny amount would have me feeling like this. I've been under a heap of stress (so much it's too much to list) - have two family members with terminal cancer plus more! But - this sleepiness is like nothing on earth!!! Can you advise - and by the way my next progesterone cream will be ordered from yourselves (if you ship to Australia down under). Thanks so much.
Oct 29, 2010
 Just about hanging in there
by: Wray

Hi Karenina I understand how you must feel, I went through all this too. In those days there was no one to help, no one who knew much about progesterone. So I was using the normal standard 'dose' of 20-40mg/day. It wasn't until I met Dr Dalton and read all her work, that I realised a high amount was necessary if symptoms were bad. I also found I felt awful in the days I took a break, so stopped doing that very quickly! In spite of having regular periods, I found they came and went with no problem, I wasn't using enough to stop them. So I'm pleased you've decided not to take one either. I see you can't have seen my answer about not to use cod liver oil, please read the link I gave, it explains why. Is the vitamin D 500mg or 500IU's? These are very different. If it's 500iu's it's far too low, it should be a minimum of 5000iu's per day. Flaxseed and cod liver oil are very different too, flax contains omega 3, which the body has to convert to EPA and DHA, but it does so at about 3% only, not very efficient. Far better to take omega 3 fish oil, which already contains EPA and DHA, and use flax oil as a salad dressing. Cod liver oil is very high in vitamin A, low in vitamin D, and has very little EPA and DHA. Please try to get some cysteine, I take this every day, it's a remarkable amino acid. One study going so far to ask if a deficiency of this amino is responsible for ageing, see here, here and here. Thanks for the kind words, and take heart, I know it will pass as I've been there too! Take care Wray
Oct 29, 2010
 Progesterone cream making me sleepy??
by: Wray

Hi Susan I'm pleased you're resisting the hyst, see this website for more confirmation. And this page for Fibroids. Ironically it's progesterone that's helping with the hot flushes, libido, racing heart etc. Progesterone and oestrogen stimulate the opposing receptor site, so when first using either hormone, the other is ramped up so to speak. Unfortunately when using only progesterone, the oestrogen dominance symptoms can be quite hectic. But if sufficient is used, this is generally mild. Unusually the only problem you seem to have is falling asleep! Progesterone does have anxiolytic and sedative actions. It can be used as an anaesthetic, but only at pharmacological doses. Please try increasing the amount and see if that helps. I recommend between 100-200mg/day. To go back to your hot flushes etc. I've found these stop or are dramatically reduced by 400mg/day progesterone for 4-5 days, then reduce slowly. There is evidence progesterone is responsible for increasing libido, and not testosterone, please see here. And the racing heart, oestrogen causes prolongation of the QT interval, which results in palpitations, arrhythmia and Torsades de Pointes. Whereas progesterone shortens the QT interval, please see here, here, here and here For more info on oestrogen's effects please see our page on HRT. Your stress levels are huge, progesterone drops sharply with continual stress, so it's no wonder you have those symptoms. As you live in Australia, please have a vitamin D test. Most Australians are desperately short of it, as you've been told to stay out of the sun, or cover up and use sunscreen, the worst thing you could do. Even people in Queensland don't get enough, see here. 20 cancers have now been linked to a low level, plus other degenerative diseases we get. For more info please see here. And yes we have many customers 'down under'! Take care Wray
Oct 31, 2010
 Thanks Wray plus
by: Susan

Thanks so much Wray. Other symptoms are now really kicking in such as breast tenderness and enlargement (excruciating) and I've never had this just using the estrogen patch. Also bloated and so tired.

Yes my D levels are ridiculously low and a cardiologist friend has me on large supplements made up by a compounding pharmacy (he has a large interest in Vitamin D). Even though I don't wear sunscreen at times it's far too hot to expose yourself to sunlight - I am also "photo sensitive" to light.

Yes - my stressors are HUGE. My lease falls due on 12/11 and I can't afford to rent anymore so basically have nowhere to go. Having 2 family members (sister and father) dying with cancer is unbearable in itself - but now personal financial issues also. (People scoff at me for not being able to work - they tell me "snap out of it" - "pull yourself together" - but I feel so ill most days it's a huge effort to even raise my head from the pillow).

My bloods are "okayish" apart from a raised cholesterol, low vitamin D and REALLY bad iron deficiency anaemia (I'm exhausted and even short periods of exercise have me aching all over and fatigued). I'm sure there is more than a hormonal connection but I feel if I were "balanced" in that area a lot of other things may fall into place.

In the meantime my family are impatient with me - "just go and have the hysterectomy" and then you'll be able to get back to work. Somehow - I do not think it's quite so black and white as that. However, tempers are short and stress is high. ie; not one family member has offered me a home - despite after 12th November - I literally have nowhere to go. And they are "at me" to start packing up and/or selling my household goods. LOL - I don't have the strength to even do my housework let alone pack up an entire house.

Sorry I am have gone on much longer than I intended. So I am under the correct assumption I will initially have a flare in estrogen dominance when using the progesterone cream (how long does this normally happen for?). I currently use Serenity (never again) and have upped the dose as per previous comments on here in relation to the amount of progesterone in Serenity. But with upping the dose I've been whammied - and feel like I'm in continual severe PMS! No - I do not want the hysterectomy as I do not believe it is a solution!! Surely after menopause my one remaining ovary is still needed to pump out that small amount of female hormone so necessary to female health and the stress of surgery is not warranted or needed (I'm again assuming here the addition of progesterone may help shrink the fibroid). Should I wean off the patch gradually over the next couple of weeks? A MILLION THANKS. Susan in Aussie land.
Nov 03, 2010
 Thanks Wray plus
by: Wray

Hi Susan Well I can see why your symptoms are so hectic! Stress plays such havoc with us, it basically shuts the body down. Neurotransmitters drop, hormone levels drop, digestion slows or stops, so we don't get the nutrients we need to make the neurotransmitters. A vicious cycle which none can get out of without some help. Either by removing the stress so things can normalise, or taking the nutrients which help immensely. Judging by your finances and situation neither is likely to happen. Interesting you are photosensitive as a lack of vitamin D causes this. The more D we have the less sensitive we are, so can stay longer in the sun, getting the needed D! Raised cholesterol is another indication your vitamin D is too low. Aching all over and fatigue is also a sign of low D, exacerbated by the low iron. You are correct, you will have to use much more progesterone to overcome the symptoms. It's difficult to say how long it will take, but the higher the amount and the more frequently you apply it the quicker it will go. I've found using it hourly for severe symptoms is an excellent method. I'm glad you are convinced you don't need the hyst. Fibroids are stimulated by oestrogen, which is suppressed by progesterone, please see our page on Fibroids. It is safe to go cold turkey off the patch, but symptoms can be severe. So I normally recommend a gradual reduction, see how you get on. Please send me an email via this link here. Take care Wray
Nov 08, 2010
 Feeling good!
by: Karenina UK

Hi Wray, thanks for all your advice and comments. Great news! I have been using Natpro progesterone cream for eight days now and I feel more myself than I have been since the hysterectomy three years ago. One tube lasted me ten days. My mood swings have gone! I don't have a reaction to your Natpro cream either. It is so much better in quality than the Serenity Cream.

I have a few questions to ask you if this is all right with you. How much mg per day am I using when the tube last ten days please? Also, I have taken a blood test for Serum Vitamin D and my GP tells me it is normal? I am not sure whether to believe him or not. The trouble is I don't understand the results! If I write the results for you to see for yourself would you be so kind as to tell me if this is normal please? R 25-OH-vitamin D2 <5 NMOL/l, R 25-OH-vitamin D3 53nmol/L. By the way I am taking 1000iu of Vitamin D a day. Secondly I had a blood test for calcium level which according to my GP is normal as well. Once again if I could write the results for you could you tell me if the results are good please? Plasma calcium level 2.36 mmol/L, Plasma corrected calcium level 2.32 mmol/L, Plasma albumin level 42g/L, Plasma alkaline phosphatame level 47 iu/L. Thanks so much in advance for your interpretation of my results.

Since reading your last comment I have stopped taking the Cod Liver Oil and I won't touch the Flaxseed either. I am still taking the Vitamin B Complex though it is causing me a lot of heartburn and a sickly stomach. So far I am taking Vitamin C 500mg, Vitamin D 1000iu a day and I will buy some Csteine next month. How much should I take of the Csteine tablets? Can I ask if there is anything I can take for the joint pain re my big toes only, the pain in my right hip and the top of the spine in the neck area please which I have had all my life? Thanks again.

My partner is so happy we do not argue anymore. We are becoming closer again thanks to you. I wish I could give you a massive hug. :o) I will NOT take a break anymore. I have learnt the hard way!

Take care Wray.
Very best wishes
Karenina

Nov 11, 2010
 Feeling good!
by: Wray

Hi Karenina I can't tell you how happy this makes me! At last, I think you have been using the cream for about 8 months now? If only people were given the right instructions, it would save a lot of heart ache. It gives progesterone such a bad name too. Thanks for trusting me, as I go against all the advice normally given. Thanks for the kind words about the cream too. If the tube lasted ten days you are now using 200mg/day. As this amount is helping you, if you can, please stay on it for about a month, then reduce slowly. You'll know soon enough if you're dropping too fast! It's so easy to increase or decrease to suit mood, stress levels, time of month etc. I'm a bit puzzled why D2 was included in the test, humans don't make it, only plants, invertebrates and fungi. In fact no vertebrate makes it. If the 53nmol/L is your level, it's very low! It should be a minimum of 120nmol/L up to 250nmol/L. See what Dr Cannell has to say on his web site the Vitamin D Council. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day. A normal serum calcium level is 2-2.5 mmol/L (8-10 mg/dL) , so yours is within range, see here. This paper also gives ranges for hypercalcaemia. I'm pleased you've stopped taking the cod liver oil, but please don't stop the flax oil. As I said, continue using it on your foods in place of, or a change from olive oil. It's such a good oil, with many studies on it's benefits. Try taking the B vitamins after food, that should help a bit. I recommend ±2000mg/day of N-acetyl cysteine, it's cheaper if you can get it in powder form. Without knowing what's causing your big toe pain, I can't really advise, but it sounds like gout. If it is you need about 800mcg/day folic acid, vitamin D, and omega 3, so don't stop the flax oil, the cysteine should help too. Your hip and spine problem sounds as if your spine is out of alignment. Find a chiropractor who should be able to help you. And I'm pleased you're not going to take a break. Bless you for the hug, I love them! Take care Wray
Nov 15, 2010
 Breast pain returning
by: Karenina UK

Hi Wray,

Thanks so much for all your helpful advice. Since taking 100mg of vitamin B complex, 2000mg of Vitamin D, 600mg n-acetyl cysteine, 500mg Vitamin C, and 650mg Flax-seed Oil and still on 200mg of n. progesterone cream I still feel great but my breast pain has returned again. I have only one more week before I start reducing it slowly as you have suggested. Do you think any of the above have triggered off the breast pain again. I believe the vitamin B complex contains soya. Might this be the cause of my breast pain? I would really appreciate your thoughts on this one.

Thanking you so much for your patience.

Take care.

Hugs Karenina
Nov 15, 2010
 Breast pain returning
by: Wray

Hi Karenina Have you had extra stress recently, as this could explain it? Have you tried rubbing the cream on your breasts, as this helps greatly? I'm surprised the B complex has soy in it, if so I would get another brand. The amount would be too small to have much affect, but if it contains genistein or diadzein then it could. You are not taking enough vitamin D, it should be a minimum of 5000iu's per day, please try to increase it. And the flax oil is far too small an amount. It's a waste of time and costly taking it in caps, it should be bought as an oil, and between 15-60ml (3-12tsp) per day should be used, over food or salads is best. Although you had the hyst 3 years ago, you still kept your ovaries. These do atrophy over time, but the sore breasts could be due to them still making oestrogen. It could be your 'period' is due now, have you thought of that? Hugs to you too! Take care Wray
Nov 20, 2010
 more ? re progesterone
by: Susan

Hi Wray, I hope you are still following this thread as I cannot figure out how to email you (I can only see where to email for order enquiries etc)
(Karenina I hope you are doing well and sorry to semi hijack your thread!!). Wray - much has happened over the last month. I do need a hysterectomy due to very severe adenomyosis, large fibroids and I may lose my left ovary as it's banded down with adhesions. After seeing an MRI of my uterus I am happy to go ahead and feel it's the right decision for me at the age of 49. I cannot continue to tolerate the amount of pelvic pain I am in. So - my question relates now to the use of progesterone cream after hysterectomy. My estrogen levels are actually quite low on my last blood panel (despite wearing estradot) and of course my Surgeon said I would not need additional progresterone after hysterectomy - my levels were good (thanks I think to the cream I use every day). My estrogen was very low indeed - in the meno range. Unfortunately I've just hit "almost diabetic" and my cholesterol is the highest it's ever been. What are your recommendations on the use of progesterone after hysterectomy? I will be continuing to use the estradot and may have to increase the dose if my one remaining ovary is removed (I still have hot flushes despite the patch and these are awful plus we are going into summer here in Australia).

My Vit D levels are up now after large doses of Vit D in a powder form prescribed by a Cardiologist friend who has a huge interest in Vitamin D. And I am not quite as photo sensitive as I was. I also have this weird thing happening on my scalp and my fingers - the Dr thinks its a form of dermatitis and it;s driving me nuts. No creams, oils or anything rubbed into my scalp has helped - it's not psoriasis which often affects the scalp. It's like I have a hard cap of dry skin on my scalp - it does not flake easily and if I try to scratch it off it bleeds and forms sores (my fingers are similar). I have to admit I feel a bit scared - my body is betraying me on so many levels!!
Anyway - sorry for the long and whining email!! - my main ? of course is your thoughts on using progest cream after hysterectomy (I will be having total laprascopic hyst and a vaginal vault suspension). xxx's for your care and all your wonderful work. Susan in Ozzie land.
Nov 24, 2010
 more ? re progesterone
by: Wray

Hi Susan in Ozzie land! Yes I'm still following the thread! I gave you the link to send me an email, I've just clicked on it and it's taken me straight to the right page. Pity about the adenomyosis etc, I can see why you need it. You do realise the patch you are using is merely making it worse? It's increasing your oestrogen levels. This is particularly pertinent if you're on a low amount of progesterone. This stimulates oestrogen initially, see Oestrogen Dominance Please read that link I gave you to HRT. Progesterone does get rid of hot flushes, but 400mg/day is needed for 4-5 days to dramatically reduce them or eliminate them. You might need even more, as it's having an uphill battle with the extra oestrogen you are getting. Progesterone can also stop the pain you have too, but 500mg/day is needed for that. Possibly an option, rather than the hyst? It is possible to reverse diabetes, in fact in30 Days, please have a look at this web site. Progesterone increases bilary choesterol output, see here, whereas oestrogen decreases it, see here. I'm sure with continued use of vitamin D and the progesterone, your cholesterol will decrease. You might like to see this paper here for reassurance about cholesterol. You could consider taking taurine, this is a vital part of bile production, see here, here and here. Oestrogen can cause dermatitis, see here. You don't mention how much progesterone you are using, but if it's anything like Karenina's it's far too low. Please try increasing to the amounts I suggest. You will need these amounts after the hyst too, until things have settled down. Take care Wray
Dec 04, 2010
 Can't seem to reduce my progesterone cream!
by: Anonymous

Hi Wray, I seem to do very well while I am on 200mg of progesterone cream and yet every time I try to reduce it slightly and stay on that level for a month my symptoms return, the headaches, my irritablity etc. I don't have a break either. Is it safe to stay on 200mg? If not can you tell me what I need to do please? Many thanks.

Please don't worry Susan....I hope things are improving for you.

I hope you are keeping well. Take care and lots of hugs to you.

Karenina
Dec 07, 2010
 Can't seem to reduce my progesterone cream!
by: Karenina UK

Hi Wray,

Sorry you may get another one of this message but I think it has disappeared! :o) Not to worry.

I have tried decreasing the amount of the progesterone cream I am using daily but everytime I do so I find I need to up it again. I have managed to lower it by the smallest amount possible yet if I take less I start to feel low, tired and slightly irritated. Will it do me any harm if I do stay on 200mg a day? Is it important that I do reduce it more?

I have had to reduce my Vitamin D to 2000mg a day, anymore and I start to feel ill. I can't take any of the other supplements you recommended apart from Vitamin C, Flaxseed Oil and a limited amount of Vitamin D. I am allergic to a lot of supplements and medication. What I am going to do is try and take the supplements you have suggested as part of a range of supplements in one and Cod Liver Oil from Xtend Life and see what happens.

Sorry to ask you so many questions. You are the only person I feel I can trust because you have experinced it yourself.

I hope you are keeping well and take care of yourself. Lots of hugs to you.

Karenina
Dec 11, 2010
 Can't seem to reduce my progesterone cream!
by: Wray

Hi Karenina I'm answering both your comments in one. There's no harm in using 200mg/day progesterone, I have many using far higher amounts, as their symptoms are so severe. And please don't forget you haven't been using that amount for very long, you must give it time. Don't even try to reduce yet, only when you feel stable enough, give it at least 3-4 months. Please try to get another brand of vitamin D, maybe it has excipients you are reacting to. 2000iu's is not sufficient for Scotland, you just don't get enough sun, and now you are in winter even less. And by ill what happens, do you get pain? If so you lack magnesium, don't take calcium if this is occurring. And please don't take cod liver oil, I've gone over this before with you. It contains far too much vitamin A, which occupies the same receptor sites as vitamin D, so the vit D gets shunted aside. Please don't take it! Please try increasing your vitamin D very slowly, maybe a week at a time, no faster, and see if that helps. I don't mind how many questions you ask me, at least there's been a major improvement in how you feel, compared to when you first wrote! Take care Wray
Jan 02, 2011
 using progesterone cream
by: Mary UK

Have read the posts with interest and have explored your site.
Have used Serenity since June 2010, following their instructions, as I ended periods 2 1/2 years ago,aged 52, using cream for 24 days and having a break of 6 days. Was just about to give up using cream as it seemed to have made no difference, but since mid December have had no hot flushes, not so hot at night, vaginal moistness has returned, aches and pains less, and the migraine headaches are much reduced. (I have suffered really bad migraines for over 10 years at ovulation and menstruation.) But I have just had a bleed, is this normal?

I take a cocktail of supplements, partly suggested by reading Marilyn Glanville's books on natural alternatives to HRT, but wonder now if most of the symptoms are just due to lack of progesterone.
Do you have a recommended set of supplements for the mid 50s?
Hope you can answer my questions. Thanks
Jan 09, 2011
 using progesterone cream
by: Wray

Hi Mary The amount of cream you will have been recommended is very low to my mind. This is the reason it's taken so long to help you. But I'm glad it finally did! As you can see Karenina had major problems on such a low amount, but once she'd increased to the 100-200mg I recommend they all went. I've found a period if it comes, is usually much sooner. But it could be once your symptoms had gone and now progesterone is becoming the dominant hormone, the break you take was sufficient to cause the bleed. It shouldn't occur again, but if it does only once more. For more info please see our page on Menopause. I know Glanville's book and her recommendations, but find if progesterone is lacking there is little in the way of supplements that can help. Except one, and that's vitamin D, as a lack of this reduces the benefits of progesterone. Both these help inflammation and therefore migraines, but I've found a high amount of progesterone is needed, see here, here and here. We do make up complexes, but not one specifically for the mid 50's or any age for that matter. We've concentrated on the problems which mostly beset people, a disturbed blood glucose leading to Insulin Resistance and all it entails. Anxiety, Inflammation and PCOS. But if there is one thing you should consider taking it's vitamin D. Please have a test done too, most of us have far too low a level, see the Vitamin D council website for more info. And this excellent video too Vitamin D and Prevention of Chronic Diseases. Take care Wray
Feb 19, 2012
 early menopause?
by: julie

i have been wondering whats going on lately? been reading up on menopause symptoms and found a web page about progesterone therapy. I am nearly 40 and have been feeling very irritable, feeling hot and flushed, tired all the time, grumpy, not interested in sex at all, haven't had my periods for 12 months seince i had my last child, headaches, difficulty sleeping, find i lose my temper easily, very stressed? am i going thru early menopause or what? help please

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