Duration of Increase Dosage

by Mannydog
(St. Paul, MN USA)

Greetings-

I have spent a lot of time searching for a specific answer but didn't find one.

I am 52 yo. I had a partial hysterectomy (still have my ovaries) almost 3 years ago. Since surgery, I haven't experienced any uncomfortable symptoms until 6 weeks ago. One night, I had a night sweat. A couple of nights later, a few more night sweats and started waking up at 4:00 am rather consistently. I thought "oh my gosh, this is it. I'm starting the change". I headed to the best health shop in town and purchased my progesterone cream. I've read Dr. Lee's book a few years back and have felt "ready to respond" when the moment arrived. I started on the 20mg 2x day and got instant relief within 3-5 days. Then about 2 weeks later, night sweats AND day hot flashes. Hey, this isn't suppose to be happening. Per your other posts, I figured I had saturated my fat cells and decreasing was the answer. Problem is, everything started getting worse, not better. Insomnia, night sweats, hot flashes, exhaustion and crabby. I'm on week 5 now and just found this site 2 days ago. Whew! Last night I spread 100mg before bed and another 60mg this morning. My question is this: How often do I increase the dose until I'm symptom free? Do I continue the 100mg dose for a few days or weeks if symptoms persist while I await for relief? How fast should I find relief at this higher dose before I increase if needed? Also, once I find the magic dose, how long do I sustain before decreasing it to find my new "norm"? Thank you so much for your consideration.

Comments for Duration of Increase Dosage

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Dec 01, 2012
Duration of Increase Dosage
by: Wray

Hi Mannydog It's interesting you are getting problems almost 3 years after surgery. The ovaries begin atrophying round about then. The feedback loop between the hypothalamus, pituitary, uterus and ovaries, is missing the uterus. Progesterone can help very quickly, but as you've found, as so many others have, a low amount merely worsens things. It stimulates oestrogen leading to Oestrogen Dominance. Ah the saturated fat cells, there are so many myths about progesterone, that I did a page on them, see Progesterone Misconceptions. My fat cells are certainly not saturated, I still respond to progesterone, and that's after using it daily for 16 years now. I would suggest using 200mg/day and see how you get on. It's impossible for me to tell how much each of us needs, even my daily amount varies. If stressed I rub it on top to toe! And do this until the stress passes. You might like to read comments from others who've had to use higher amounts to get relief, see here, here, here and here. The idea is to use high amounts, then once symptoms subside, to reduce very slowly. Symptoms come back if reducing too fast. I wish I could tell how long it will take too, but I can't, each women varies. But please have a vitamin D test done. A lack of this reduces the benefits of progesterone. Many women have found by getting theirs high, persistent symptoms have gone, in spite of high amounts of progesterone. For more info on vitamin D levels, test kits etc see the Vitamin D Council, GrassrootsHealth and Birmingham Hospital. Blood levels should be 70-100ng/ml (175-250nmol/L) and not the 30ng/ml (75nmol/L) most labs and doctors regard as adequate. The minimum daily dose should be 5000iu's per day, although recent research indicates it should be 10,000iu's per day, see here. Take care Wray

Dec 04, 2012
Dosage Increase
by: Manny Dog

Thank you, thank you Wray!! I just received the Natpro (I was using Emerita) and increased my dose yesterday to 200mgs. I slept 7 hours straight for the first time in weeks. This morning, I had a "warm" moment and slathered on another 20mgs. Last night was the first time I hadn't had night sweats since November 1st. I will get my Vit D tested next week. I was taking 5000 per day, but started having sinus headaches so I've taken a break. You're the best and I so appreciate all your efforts. Take care and be well!

Dec 05, 2012
Dosage Increase
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Many thanks for the kind words! So delighted you slept through and no night sweats. I found those and the hot flushes in the day the worst aspect of Peri-menopause! I'm also delighted you're using the progesterone as it should be used, as and when needed. I have some women using it hourly for bad symptoms. I've found it gives almost instant relief for burns, headaches, minor wounds, period cramps, if applied directly to the problem area. Others have found it helps piles too. I've not heard of vitamin D giving a sinus headache. But I do know that a low level reduces the benefits of progesterone, and that increasing vitamin D can cause oestrogen dominance symptoms. So it could be a feedback is taking place between the two. It could also be your magnesium is too low, as increasing vitamin D with low magnesium can cause pain. The reverse is true too. A test will tell you whether it's too low, or fine, glad you're doing that. Do let me know when you get your results. Take care Wray

Dec 14, 2012
Manny Dog Update
by: Manny Dog

Greetings Wray-
I wanted to take a few minutes to give you an update re my use of the Natpro cream. I’ve used approximately 350-400mg per day for the past 10 days (a lower dose prior for about 5 weeks which produced only agony). As you know I was having issues with the often recommended low does and things had gone from bad to worse. With your suggestion, I took a deep breath and slathered my body with 200mg in the morning and 200mg before bed. Within days, I felt the best I have in years. I wanted to share my wonderful results as I know there are some women who visit the site and have concerns trusting the higher doses when struggling with lower recommendations from other sources.

I am a recovering benzo addict (Valium). I’ve struggled with anxiety for many years. After using the higher dose of progesterone cream, my anxiety is gone. I mean, completely gone.

I have struggled with rheumatoid arthritis since the age of 27, I am currently 52. My daily joint pain, if I keep my diet clean from sugar, wheat and other processed foods, would average 8 or 9 out of 10. My joint pain now is about a 2 or 3 on most days with a couple of doses of ibuprofen. It’s amazing.

I’ve been crabby/angry for many months. Not anymore. I feel relaxed and have allowance once again for mankind. No more road rage, checkout line intolerance or a short fuse re my sweet husband.

Nights sweats gone. Hot flashes, gone. Insomnia, gone. Last night I slept 10 hours!!!

I also wanted to mention that I’ve lost 21lbs on Weight Watchers the past 5 months and have had no weight gain whatsoever using the cream. I know some women have posted this as an issue; however, I truly believe if you use a lower dose, you are going to have issues with the estrogen rearing its ugly head. At the higher dose, it’s been a very well received anti-inflammatory agent.

I also want to mention that I developed cellulite this past year for the first time in my life. I’ve been applying the cream to my thighs every day and slowly, the cellulite is starting to fade.

I also am now taking 5400 units of vit D and 1000 mg calcium with 500 magnesium daily. I will get my vit D checked in about 3 months after giving all of this time to acclimate.

Again, thank you Wray for your wisdom. You are a blessing to many.

Dec 15, 2012
Manny Dog Update
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Blessings to you too, for following my outrageous advice, against all others. I was recently sent a paper which bears out the high amounts. You might like to read about it here. The study used the equivalent of 2500-5000mg/day for a 50kg (110lb) woman, for neuroblastoma, a cancer very prevalent in children under one year. I'm amazed the progesterone helped so quickly with your Anxiety. Not that I don't know it does, but I know the appalling side affects of benzos. Drugs so dreadful no sane doctor would ever prescribe them. A friend of mine can't get off them now, the side affects are too awful. And the RA, I know it's a potent anti-inflammatory, but in 10 days?! Progesterone can help with it, it’s always low. RA is regarded as a TH1 immune response-driven disease, as a higher level of Th1 is found in RA patients. Th1 induces inflammatory cytokines, Th2 induces anti-inflammatory cytokines. Studies have found that induction of Th2 cytokines can reduce inflammation. Progesterone causes a shift from Th1 to Th2 immune response, increasing the anti-inflammatory cytokines IL-4 and IL-10. On the other hand oestrogen is an excitatory hormone and enhances the immune response, causing inflammation. Moreover, oestrogen stimulates the production of matrix metalloproteinases (MMP’s) which are enzymes that degrade protein and cause inflammation. Excess MMP’s are found in RA. Excess oestrogen is found in RA, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Continued below

Dec 15, 2012
Manny Dog Update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Vitamin D does too, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. You are right about the weight gain, too little and it will occur. I feel you need more vitamin D in view of the RA, 5000iu is the minimum to raise levels. I would also avoid, or reduce the calcium, one role vitamin D has is to transport Ca from the gut into the blood stream. Our diet has far more than magnesium due to all the dairy we eat. Plus Mg is low in our soils, therefore our food, this mineral is the most important co-factor for vitamin D. Don't forget that if you are ever stressed, progesterone levels will drop. Please keep in touch. Take care Wray

Dec 19, 2012
Update Question
by: Manny Dog

Greetings Wray-

Again, thank you for your time. I just wanted to post another update since there has been a shift in symptoms and perhaps others will find the information valuable. I know I can't get enough of all the previous posts. The information is amazing.

I've been using 400mgs of Natpro for a couple of weeks now (started on a low dose of 40mg per day on November 1st and have been adjusting as needed). The past few days, I've begin experiencing sugar/carb cravings, sore breasts, mild headaches, drowsiness and a fair amount of rage. One would think my cycle was about to begin (partial hyterectomy 3 years ago). I'm going to assume that my body has regulated itself to the higher dose and my estrogen is rearing it's nasty side once again. I'm going to increase my dose to 500mg per day, applying 200mgs in the morning and 300mgs before bed. I will report back my results.

No need to respond unless you wish. Also, per your suggestion, I'm increasing my Vit D to 10,000 units per day.

You're the best and I'm your number 1 Minnesota fan!

Dec 21, 2012
Update Question
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog I'm delighted you're finding the comments on the site so helpful, it's rather a maze though! In reply to your last very enthusiastic post, I was going to warn you about oestrogen rearing it's head again, but thought better of it. It's a problem I'm confronted with all the time. I believe in positive thinking, and don't like giving negative info out. But unfortunately oestrogen almost always does have a say in the matter, so I'm always torn! Although your ovaries have slowed right down, they will still be making a bit of oestrogen. Your symptoms certainly suggest this. It does de-stabilise blood glucose, see here. We also have a page on Breast Tenderness, and one on headaches and Migraines. I'm so pleased you're taking 10000iu vitamin D, as I feel you probably have too low a level as most of us do. Mine was 34ng/ml at my first test, it's now 92ng/ml at my last. If you can get yours up high, I would hope you won't have to use as much progesterone. You could try splitting the amount of progesterone into more than twice a day, sometimes this is more affective than only using it twice. Bless you for the kind words! I wish others responded as you have done, I'm struggling with a girl in Denmark, also using 400mg/day, but has had a severe oestrogen dominant reaction. Her vitamin D level was one of the lowest I've ever seen, which I feel accounts for the appalling symptoms she had been experiencing before asking for advice. Her oestrogen is probably very high too. So I feel she'll need closer to 1000mg/day, but how to suggest that without sounding like a quack?! Take care Wray

Jan 09, 2013
Another Update re New Symptoms
by: Manny Dog

Happy New Year Wray! I am currently applying 1 tsp of Natpro 3 times a day (176mg per application and 528mg a day total). Everything calmed down within a day or two with the increase; however, now my breasts are swollen/sore (I swear they are growing) and I'm dizzy during the day. I'm feeling a bit tired and maybe depressed. The Minnesota January weather isn't helping matters when it comes to mood control. My question for you is whether or not I should increase my dose. You say the word and I'm going to start applying. After reviewing our history, it appears that about every 2 weeks or so, I'm in need of an adjustment. Other than the "mild" discomfort I am experiencing, I really am feeling great these days. I must admit, I have been a bit freaked out the past couple of days with your Natpro being out of stock (of course, I wanted to apply more cream which is advised during stressful situations, but was too scared to use up my supply). I have 5 days worth of Natpro left and at my high dosage, it's going to be rather expensive supplementing with another product; however, I trust you will be up and running very soon. You're the best and many thanks for taking time to respond.

Jan 12, 2013
Another Update re New Symptoms
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Happy New Year to you too! I'm sorry you're having the usual bumpy ride, after beginning so encouragingly. It so often happens, which is why I warn about oestrogen dominance, it can come out of the blue. I would hope your Breast Tenderness and dizziness calms down soon, it was the increase which caused an initial stimulation of oestrogen. The other thing you could check are your iodine levels, as a lack of this also causes sore breasts. There are instructions on the above page showing how to do this. I also suspect your vitamin D level is too low still, have you had a chance to have it checked yet. Winter does of course drop levels of vitamin D, progesterone too. I'm reluctant for you to increase the amount, as you are already taking a high level. Not that it's harmful, just costly. So if you feel the need to increase it, please do. Alternatively try increasing your vitamin D to 20,000iu per day and see if that helps, it's cheaper too! I'm so sorry about the stock out which appears to have stopped now. We do experience them periodically, as supply doesn't keep up with demand, although we try to keep on top of this, it's not always possible. Let me know what you decide and whether it's helped you. Take care Wray

Jun 18, 2013
Manny Dog Update
by: Anonymous

Greetings Wray-

It's been a while so I thought I would drop you a line. I've been maintaining my 3 tsp per day (400 mgs per day) of Natpro and am still symptom free (no hot flashes, no night sweats, no weight gain, no anxiety, no crabby pants and best of all, I look 10 years younger). I'm starting slowly decrease the dose a bit (1/4 tsp the past 2 weeks)to see if I can find a new norm. I had my vit. D checked and it came back 69. Not too bad, could be better, so I'm increasing my dose to 10,000 units per day. I have no complaints so I will keep it short and sweet. Thanks for all you do!

MD

Jun 27, 2013
Manny Dog Update
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Bless you for telling me this, so good to know! Feedback is so important to me. You say you've been maintaining your 400mg/day by using 3tsp, this will actually give you 500mg. And in a previous post you said you were using 500mg/day. But whatever it is it does seem to be helping you. The one thing which please me is the weight, I do wish others would take the "deep breath and slathered my body with 200mg in the morning and 200mg before bed" that you did, it is the only answer. Some even need more. It's taken 6 months to get to the point where you feel confident you can begin lowering the amount. I have found this the case, it's not a quick fix. And I see you are reducing it slowly, so essential this and to stay on that amount until happy to reduce further. Thanks for giving me this good news! Sorry about the delay in replying, but we've been having server site problems, which now seemed to be fixed. Take care Wray

Jun 27, 2013
Correction
by: Manny Dog

Thank you Wray for the reply. You are correct, it's 500 mgs a day. Give or take a 1/4 tsp. Some days, I use the full 3 tsp and others I don't. Depends on my stress level. I'm in no hurry to mess much with my formula since I'm getting wonderful results. I remember a previous post from one of your customers who said it took her over a year on a higher dose than mine to reduce her estrogen side effects. I kept that as a reminder when feeling frustrated, but I must confess, once I chose to increase my dose, it didn't take very long for relief. The sore breasts were the only consistent symptom off and on for a while, but that hasn't been an issue for what seems like a long time now. I still struggle with small bouts of anxiety, but it's manageable and short lived. I use EFT tapping as well. Thanks again Wray for all you do. I'm also connected on Facebook and appreciate Joy's reminders/comments (Christine Hove Jacobs).

Be well and take care.

Jun 29, 2013
Correction
by: Wray

Hi Manny Dog Does me good to hear your comments! I do get very frustrated at times. I can understand people's concern about using high amounts of progesterone, but when I have to endlessly repeat myself, I want to give up. Joy and another friend in London keep me going, and comments such as yours. I wish they would all do as you did 'I took a deep breath and slathered my body with 200mg in the morning and 200mg before bed". But not to stop there, if it's not enough use more, or add some nutrients to help, or use EFT as you did. I used it myself this morning, it's a remarkable therapy. Stress will always be with us, and everything possible should be done to lower the level or to help cope with it. There will always be ups and downs, it's how we perceive them which is critical. Thanks so much for your support. Take care Wray

Jan 21, 2015
2015 Update
by: Mannydog

Hi Wray- Happy you took some time off. It's been several years now and thought an update might be helpful to others. About a year ago, I reduced my cream to 2 tsp per day. I was going along rather well until last month. Night sweats and hot flashes. I re-read my previous posts and now realize that I need to up my dose again. Not sure why I'm having issues after doing well for so long (my Vit. D level is fine), but I think it's a good reminder that this is a process and there is no specific dose to arrive at. Either way, I'm increasing to 3 tsp per day (approx. 500 mg). I expect to find relief again very soon.

Take care!


Jan 22, 2015
2015 Update
by: Wray

Hi Manyydog How lovely to hear from you again! It has been several years, you first wrote in Dec 2012. I needed the break as I was answering too many people, now I limit myself to those who use Natpro, or new comers to progesterone. I was burning out from replying to everyone! I'm delighted the progesterone is still helping you. I wonder if your vitamin D isn't the cause of the night sweats etc. When did you last check up on your level? Although you say your level is fine, you live in St. Paul, MN, and will have had no sunshine for weeks now. I know you've very conscious about this fact, and were taking a good dose, but it's worth having a test done. And then there's Stress, has it increased? I did a list of things which can cause progesterone to drop, I'll paste it below in the hopes it helps. Take care Wray

These are a few things which cause progesterone levels to drop, or to be less effective……
lack of or drop in Vitamin D
dark days, especially winter, probably because vitamin D drops in winter due to lack of sun
high oestrogen
high testosterone
low SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin), this binds testosterone and oestrogen making them inactive. SHBG drops due to consuming sugars, and all foods which convert to glucose, i.e. grains, legumes, sweet starchy fruits and veggies.
high LH
high FSH
high stress

Continued below

Jan 22, 2015
2015 Update Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Mannydog

high adrenaline (comes from Stress or excitement, and a drop in blood glucose), this stops progesterone entering the cells
sugars of any kind
large meals, because of the increased metabolic clearance of progesterone
alcohol, this reduces progesterone levels and increases the androgens, ie testosterone
high insulin
high level of phytoestrogens in the diet
oestrogenic herbs
oestrogen mimics or endocrine disrupting chemicals (EDCs)
contraceptives
HRT
Insulin Resistance
a defective luteal phase
high copper/low zinc
high prolactin

Feb 01, 2015
Encouraged by Manny Dog's story
by: Aliisa

I just wanted to send a shout out to Manny Dog for sharing her story. I have been avidly reading the pages on the Progesterone Therapy site for a couple months now as I have been struggling for 8 months now. Actually longer but it was more sporadic. It was so great to read the updates and that increasing the dose worked, etc... It gives me hope. I have been using Natpro for 2 cycles now. Thank you so much for sharing!!!

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