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Dr. Dalton vs Dr. Lee's dosing recs

by Shirley

Hi Wray.....I'm curious...Dr. Dalton's books started in the 60's....Dr. Lee didn't start getting info out until the 90's. Yet his dosing amounts are so much lower then what Dr. Dalton suggests. It would seem the doses should be even higher now with all the crap we're exposed to.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.


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Jan 14, 2012
 Dr. Dalton vs Dr. Lee's dosing recs
by: Wray

Hi Shirley You are so right! I was lucky enough to meet Dr Dalton several times before her death, such a lovely person, she gave her time freely to me as she knew I was trying to help other women. I've heard her speak, Dr Lee too, he was a wonderful man, excellent speaker. But they did disagree on the amount to use. I think the reason was Dr Lee found progesterone when many of his patients were entering menopause. Whereas Dr Dalton was principally helping much younger women. Women who were having major problems with miscarriages, pre-term births, pre-eclampsia, PND and post natal psychosis. She found much higher levels were needed to help these women, going as high as 2400mg/day for patients with post natal psychosis. She was adamant high amounts were needed, as studies using low amounts had not worked, and yet her dosing had. This is the reason I suggest high amounts too, following her advice. It's been an interesting journey for me, as so many write in complaining about progesterone. I then learn the amount used was the 'normal' 20mg/day, sometimes 40mg/day. But even this fails to raise progesterone above sub-luteal levels, see here. One persuasive argument for me, is if we make 20ng/ml per day during the luteal phase, and yet we have adverse symptoms, surely giving 20mg/day would be useless. And this is precisely what I've found, it is, in fact it's worse than not using it, as symptoms become worse. As for all the 'crap' we're exposed to, that too. Any stress, be it physical, mental or emotional, causes a cascade of inflammatory cytokines to be produced, causing oxidative stress. Plus exposure to toxins in food, air, water and skin care, which increases the free radical burden, also leads to oxidative stress, thence to many, if not all our modern diseases. To overcome this large amounts of antioxidants are needed, foremost being vitamin D, plus the antioxidant amino acids. And of course progesterone too. Interestingly, both progesterone and vitamin D regulate gene expression, have a positive fundamental effect on cell differentiation and growth, with anti-oxidative and autoimmune anti-inflammatory mechanisms. Both positively effect the nervous system by stimulating neurotrophic factors, quenching oxidative hyperactivity and regulating autoimmune responses. I will always encourage women to use far higher amounts of progesterone than the 'norm', but to me it's essential they take antioxidants too. Plus changing diet to one as organic as possible, using safe skin care, avoiding stress if possible too. Or at least learning to cope with it. Who doesn't have stress now, far, far too much! Take care Wray
Jan 06, 2013
 Dr.Dalton vs Dr.Lee's dosing recs
by: Jennifer

Hello Wray,

In refernce to
"I then learn the amount used was the 'normal' 20mg/day, sometimes 40mg/day. But even this fails to raise progesterone above sub-luteal levels, see here "

My question is: The research was based on the changes in serum level. According to Dr., we should check our saliva level instead of the serum level.
See the information from Dr.
"This is the progesterone available to target tissues and to saliva. Thus, progesterone measured by serum levels is mostly a measure of progesterone that is not going to be used by the body."

In reference to:
"if we make 20ng/ml per day during the luteal phase, and yet we have adverse symptoms, surely giving 20mg/day would be useless. "

My question is:
1. Is it possible that body fails to make 20mg per day, that causes adverse symptoms?

2. Is it possible that Dr.Dalton treated her patients with high dosage only temporarily?

My idea is
If the body suffers a lack of progesterone for a long time, it makes sense to use a high amount to catch up with the normal saliva level at the beginning, but once it reaches the normal saliva level I feel 20mg would be more natural.

Would you please comment on my idea. Thank you!

Jennifer
Jan 08, 2013
 Dr.Dalton vs Dr.Lee's dosing recs
by: Wray

Hi Jennifer It is not only possible that the body fails to make 20mg/day, but it frequently does. This is the reason many women have severe PMS, as it's not just progesterone withdrawal causing it, but low progesterone secretion. This is due to a defective luteal phase. This should be in all women 12-14 days long. Many women have 8 to 10 day phases. Many others fail to secrete enough progesterone during the luteal phase, another form of defective luteal phase. There's more info about this on our Pregnancy page. Many women have cycles 35 days long, therefore producing oestrogen for 21 days. Some women have cycles way outside the norm, i.e. 54 days, therefore there are 30 days of oestrogen secretion. Many women have anovulatory cycles where ovulation does not take place, so only oestrogen and testosterone are being secreted by the ovaries. This occurs with increasing frequency from about age 35. Many women have high testosterone levels due to the sugars they eat, this causes really severe PMS. High testosterone suppresses ovulation, so too does excess oestrogen, LH and FSH. In every case Dr Dalton treated her patients temporarily. The idea is to overcome the adverse symptoms. This is the reason I ask people to use a high amount initially, and to begin reducing it once stable. This can take many months in some women, as they have a host of adverse symptoms, see this comment here. And what is natural? A lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. So if a woman has low vitamin D levels, she will need more progesterone than someone with a high level. Dark days and winter reduce progesterone levels, so too do large meals, sugar, insulin, phytoestrogens in the diet, and stress. This drops progesterone levels sharply. If a woman is very stressed on a daily basis, she will need far more than 20mg/day. There are so many confounding factors, each one has to be taken into account, and from this the amount of progesterone is deduced. I find the amount I use varies considerably with the amount of stress I have. Each woman has to find their own amount, increasing and reducing as they see fit. Take care Wray
Jul 26, 2015
 Quick Dosing Question
by: Kristin

Hi Wray!

Thank you so much for the wealth of information here. I was just diagnosed with Adrenal Fatigue in June. My Dr. has not mentioned progesterone therapy but the more I research it the more I think it is absolutely necessary. I didn't even know what it was until I read Dr. Michael Platt's book Adrenaline Dominance. I took your questionnaire and I scored 27! Even though I haven't had a lab test done, I know I am low. Your cream is 33mg per dose so I would need 3+ doses a day correct? In Dr. Platt's book he recommends up to 250mg per day. Do you think that high of a dose is safe? Thanks again for all your hard work and wonderful research provided here.
Jul 29, 2015
 Quick Dosing Question
by: Joy

Hi Kristin

Such a pity that doctors seem to 'overlook' progesterone, it's vital. Dr Platt used to buy Natpro from Wray and is very knowledgeable on progesterone. I must just correct you though, Natpro is not 33mg per dose, 33mg is 1ml, the minimum needed per day is 3ml/100mg, so yes, you would need 3+ depending on your symptoms. All progesterone creams have different concentrations. Please read How to use Progesterone Cream and Estrogen Dominance.

Do you know what your Vitamin D3 level is as a deficiency reduces the benefits of progesterone, so please take that into account.

Hope this helps.

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