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Dosage 20mg or above 100mg?

by Jennifer
(Germany)

Hello Wray,

I just read the following from your website here.

"Progesterone (saliva)
Female (follicular) 12-100 pg/ml or 38.16 - 318.00 pmol/L
Female (luteal) 75-270 pg/ml or 238.5 - 858.6 pmol/L
Postmenopausal 12-100 pg/ml or 38.16 - 318.00 pmol/L
Male 15-100 pg/ml or 47.70 - 318.00 pmol/L

For example, 30 mg topical progesterone supplementation results in an average rise in salivary levels from about 50 pg/ml (0.05 ng/ml) to 500 to 3000 pg/ml (0.5 to 3 ng/ml), a 10 to 60-fold increase."

My question:
Does it mean that the saliva level might rise higher than the normal range by taking only 30mg progesterone?

"This increase is proportionally even greater when progesterone is supplemented at 100 to 200 mg per day, a common topical dose used by many doctors, resulting in salivary progesterone levels rising to as high as 10,000 to 100,000 pg/ml (10-100 ng/ml).
Under the same conditions, serum progesterone levels only increase about 4-fold, from about 0.5 to 2-3 ng/ml. "

My question:
To take 100mg to 200mg Progesterone per day as you suggested,is it based on serum level, not based on saliva level? Dr. Lee suggested us to take Saliva test instead of serum test. The following information is from Dr.Lee

"This is the progesterone available to target tissues and to saliva. Thus, progesterone measured by serum levels is mostly a measure of progesterone that is not going to be used by the body."

I have not used progesterone cream long enough to judge whether 20mg is better or worse than 100mg to 200mg,
I am simply confused by the information I read, would you please help me.

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Jan 09, 2013
 Dosage 20mg or above 100mg?
by: Wray

Hi Jennifer Although ZRT indicates 30mg/day can raise levels that high, we have not found this to be so. We run Saliva Tests periodically, using about 100mg/day and find levels reach about 3000pg/ml. With the ratios varying between ±600:1 up to over 1000:1, the naturopath who does them for us is always pleased with the results. The 100-200mg/day is not based on either serum or saliva, but it's the amount I've found generally helps women resolve adverse symptoms. Although I'm finding more and more are opting to use 400mg/day. I'm not sure what your concern is. I have found that using 20mg/day often makes matters far worse, as it merely stimulates oestrogen. If there are adverse symptoms, 20mg/day is not going to do anything. As I have pointed out to you, it doesn't raise levels to that found in the luteal phase, but far lower. In fact it barely reaches follicular levels. The whole point of using progesterone is to resolve symptoms, these are often a result of excess oestrogen. The higher the oestrogen the more progesterone is needed. There are many women using 1000mg/day, as they have found anything less hasn't helped, see here, here and here, scroll to Nov 26, 2012 Having a Hard Time. I always ask people to have a vitamin D test done, as a lack of this reduces the benefits of progesterone. Once vitamin D levels are high enough, and oestrogen suppressed, it is possible to reduce the progesterone slowly. But why don't you try the 20mg/day and see if it helps you, it would be interesting for me if you did. It could well be you only need topping up. Take care Wray
Jan 13, 2013
 Dosage 20mg or above 100mg
by: Jennifer

Hello Wray,

Thank you for all your answers to my questions. I just need you to convince myself so that I can grow more faith in it.

I started with lower dosage 2 weeks ago, and it was not easy, I got headache, stomach acid(GERD), nausea, swollen and painful breasts, slight weight gain... now I am convinced by both your knowledge and my own experience, that I should take the higher dosage you recomend (100mg to 200mg).

I just odered 6 pcs more Natpro for my mother in Taiwan. She started to use it 5 days ago, she told me that her pain is all gone, she is very happy. I have no idea how much my mother uses, I only told her, as long as she feels pain or depression just put more cream. As you said, progesterone cream is for treating the symptoms, the dosage is not so important.

I will keep you updated.

Jennifer
Jan 13, 2013
 Dosage 20mg or above 100mg
by: Wray

Hi Jennifer Well I'm pleased you did try the lower amount, as you have not only convinced yourself about it, but confirmed yet again to me that it's not worth it! I'm delighted and amazed your mother has responded so quickly. I'm glad you've warned her about oestrogen dominance possibly kicking in. It's a pity but this does happen. People respond quickly, feel so good, and then appear to go backwards. You might like to read this comment here, which is exactly what happened to this woman. I would be interested to hear how much your mother is using. If she doesn't know the actual amount, maybe she could let you know how long a tube is lasting her. I can then work it out from there. And yes, progesterone is for treating symptoms, a fixed amount is not a good idea. There's no hard and fast rule to using it, as and when it's needed is best. Adjusting the amount to suit symptoms. And do let me know how you get on. Take care Wray
Jan 15, 2013
 Dosage 20mg or above 100mg?
by: Jennifer

Hi Wray,

I talked to my mother yesterday, she told me that she finished 1 tube in 4 or 5 days, I am happy that she used high dosage, so that she did not suffer like me. I bought only 3 tubes, now I need to buy her more, I just ordered 6 tubes for her, but I think she need more later on. ( Although, I am going to tell her to slowly reduce the dosage to 200mg).

Yesterday, I wrote a message to organic products, there is no one to answer my question. I do not know if you could help me.
Please see the message see as below

"I am thinking of purchasing 20 pcs Natpro from you, because the unit price is much cheaper. (1pcs is USD 17,25 instead of USD 23) , However, due to the custom regulation in Taiwan, I do not think that I am allowed to buy so many tubes in one shipment. (The regulation is this, Product cost +shipping cost =100 USD, if the value of the parcel is more than 100 USD, it will be sent to the custom inspection station.
Therefore, I would like to know, if I could puchase 20 pcs, but ship them in 4 seprated shipments? (5 pcs for 1 shipment), I will pay cost of each shipment. (the shipping method will be 4 times of the first class international USD14,34 ; 4X14,34=57,36),

Product cost 20x17,25=345
Shipping cost 57,36
Total USD 402,36

If it works for you? (I do not mind to pay some handling fee to you), if it is OK for you, please send me a paypal link, so that I can pay you thorough Paypal."

I also thought of the subscribe service for Natpro. Amazon US provides the subscribe service for the Source Naturals Progesterone Cream.
I am wondering if it is possible for Natpro?

I am also quite worried because I know the Natpro is currently out of stock. Please also let me know when I can order again. Thank you!
Jennifer
Jan 15, 2013
 Dosage 20mg or above 100mg?
by: Wray

Hi Jennifer No wonder your mother responded so well, I thought she must be using a large amount. About 400-500mg/day. She must reduce very slowly when she does, or her symptoms will come back again. Due to volume of work both for me and other departments, we can't always get round to answering queries immediately. But I see you have been answered now, and that it is possible to send in separate shipments. The subscribe service is something Amazon have for products sold on their site. We don't sell Natpro on Amazon, only via our website or distributors. I'm sorry about the stock out, we do have them periodically. We do keep track of stock bought by regular customers and distributors, but sometimes a new customer buys 100 tubes, which throws out all the calculations. Take care Wray

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