Can low pergesterone cause long heavy periods or a constant period (sometimes very light and then sometimes very heavy but constant) ?

by Susan Mann
(Concord, CA.)

First of all I want to say that my doctor told me I do not have fibroids. She feels my problem is hormonal because of my age and other peri-menopause symptoms I have like hot flashes. I am 53 years old and I have a constant period. On the average, for about half the month I will bleed very light and then for approximately the other half I will bleed very heavy and with alot of clots. Sometimes I will bleed heavy for a few days and then light a few days and then back to heavy and so on. I don't always bleed heavily or lightly all in several days in a row, it can be very erratic. When the bleeding is bad I can't leave the house and use a tampon and a night-time pad. I have to change the tampon and pad sometimes every 15 minuets to 1/2 hour for most of the day. It then subsides some for a while only to start back up to the frequent changes later in the middle of the night or the next day or 2 days later. Very ,very erratic. I live in fear of just when and where I will be when the heavy bleeding will start.

I have had problem for maybe about 4 or 5 years now. My doctor says that it will correct itself once I hit menopause. I can't stand to wait for that. I could go several more years before menopause comes. I have read that some women can go up to 60 years old before reaching menopause and their period stops for good. This is interfering with my daily life as well as my sex life.

I have been doing some research and I am wondering if I might have low progesterone levels and if taking natural progesterone oil, orally, will help me with this problem? I also don't know how much to take for my problem? I was thinking of Progest E oil. Can anyone help with this? I plan to ask my doctor for a saliva hormone test. Please don't tell me to find a different doctor or to just wait to see what the doctor says about the test results. I am looking for an answer to my questions above.

Comments for Can low pergesterone cause long heavy periods or a constant period (sometimes very light and then sometimes very heavy but constant) ?

Click here to add your own comments

Aug 27, 2012
Can low pergesterone cause long heavy periods or a constant period (sometimes very light and then sometimes very heavy but constant)?
by: Wray

Hi Susan Progesterone does help with heavy bleeding, but I've found at least 400mg/day or more is needed. Please also consider taking at least 2000mg/day NAC (N-acetyl cysteine), this inhibits the MMPs which cause the lining of the uterus to breakdown. We have more info on our Menstruation page. You might like to read these comments by other women with heavy bleeding here and here. I do agree about not having to wait till menopause! Incidentally women normally go into menopause round about the same time as their mothers, so maybe you could ask yours when she did. Peri-menopause is such a difficult time as it is, the last thing any woman needs is heavy bleeding too. Oral progesterone is the least effective Delivery system, as most gets destroyed in the gut and liver, leaving little to help. If you do start progesterone, please read the page on Oestrogen Dominance first. This often occurs and is generally because too little progesterone is used. Take care Wray

Aug 27, 2012
progesterone oil
by: Susan Mann

Wray,

I ordered this natural oral progesterone oil (progest-E Complex) from the Internet BEFORE I found your Progesterone Therapy web site. I don't know if I can return it. I did not receive it yet but I have emailed to ask if I could return the order and get a refund. I have not gotten an answer to that yet.

I got the following quote from the Progest-E Complex site (electricbody.com) that I ordered the oil from.

"The best way to intake natural progesterone is dissolved in vitamin E because it can enter the blood stream almost as soon as it contacts any membrane, such as lips, tongue, gums, or palate. And when swallowed, it continues to be absorbed by the digestive process.
If progesterone is dissolved in vitamin E, it is C."

If you are not familiar with this product...here is a copy of the description of this particular oral progestern oil product that tells what is in it and how they claim it works in your system through their oral oil formula. Please read it and tell me what you think so you can answer my questions below. http://store.agoodvitamin.com/prcoreoil28m.html


So one of my questions is..... if it is not returnable and I must keep it then, in your opinion ( I trust your opinion), is it worthless to take it at all? Since I had already ordered the oral oil then I was planing on taking it and when it was gone then switching over to your cream. The problem is that I bought 3 bottles of it. Boy, do I wish I had found your site before I placed the order. I am hopeful that it can be returned especially if you feel it is worthless to help me get started on a progesterone regimen before I can use your cream.

A few more questions are....If it is not returnable then what dose do you suggest I take for the equivalent of 400 mg of your cream? After reading all the information on your site I don't trust the manufacturers (Dr. Peat) recommended dosage as doing any good for my bleeding problems and other peri-menopausal problems like hot flashes. I am sure the reccomended oil dosage is way too low of a dosage in general, plus the fact that you state on your site that progesterone oil cannot be absorbed as well as cream. If I am stuck keeping this oil then I hope, from the descriptions above and the web page I listed............... that you can tell me that of any oral progesterone oil, this brand is, at least, a better made oil then others?

Aug 28, 2012
Sent other questions
by: Susan Mann/Susie M

Wray,

I just now figured out this site and how it works if you have more questions or additional comments after an answer from you or anyone else. I did not realise this before and made new comment titles and posts separately instead of continuing this first one I started. Wray, my other posts are signed under Susie M. from CA. I forgot what my original sign in was. I really go by Susie to everyone.

I have since asked additional questions about NAC, and vitamin D. I wanted to know about the difference between NAC (500-600mg) you can get at health food stores and the one I found that claimed it was a pharmaceutical grade (900mg) in an effervescent individually wrapped tablets. I found a vitamin D cap that is 10,000 IU's and wanted to get your take about that single pill high dosage. I included links to these products so you could check out their claims.

I asked if there was a 20 or 25 pack of Natpro progesterone that could be ordered. I saw that there is a three tube pack available for a discount price per tube but not a pack larger than 3.

I also asked about Natpro progesterone cream for my sister who has severe Psoriatic Arthritis. She is taking a ton of prescription medication.

I was wondering why I did not get an email confirming my new posts like I did for this first one and now I know why. Sorry I am so slow in figuring the system out. Wray, I don't know if you can look up my other posts by my name (Susie M) and insert them here in order to answer them or not.

Aug 30, 2012
progesterone oil
by: Wray

Hi Susan It is a very good oil, and the buccal cavity (i.e. the mouth) does absorb it well. I have a problem with the swallowing, although Ray Peat (who I admire greatly) does say it's absorbed well in the gut, I've yet to find a paper which agrees with this. But maybe I'm missing them. We have more info on our Delivery systems page. Using progesterone topically means it bypasses the liver, which is a good thing, as some is destroyed by it. The site does say... "Normally, the body produces 10 to 20 milligrams per day. A quantity of 3 or 4 drops usually brings the blood levels up to the normal range." Please see our page on Progesterone Misconceptions, as even 40mg/day does not raise progesterone to levels found in the luteal phase. If you feel you need 400mg/day, which is necessary for heavy, continual bleeding and Hot Flushes, then you would need to use 133 drops of oil, there are 3mg/drop of oil. The site goes on to say "but this dose can be repeated several times during the day if needed." You will need to do this, but a minimum of twice a day at least. Take care Wray

Aug 30, 2012
progesterone oil
by: Wray

Hi Susie I did see your other questions and will answer them. It doesn't matter, but does help me if there's a thread, i.e. one question which leads to more after I've answered it. I can then keep track of what was said before, or what symptoms we're addressing. The 10,000iu's vitamin D is a good dose, if your level is very low I suggest you take it. The norm is 5000iu's per day, Dr Cannell recommends this brand here, as it contains all the co-factors needed. We do have a 20 pack which comes with a 30% discount, you'll see it if you click on the 'Add to cart" page, it says...."Special offers: 3 tubes $69.00, 20 tubes $345.00, For re-sellers: 100 tubes $1,265.00". And your idea is good, I will put my replies on this page too, I don't want to leave the others unanswered though, so you will get two emails! Take care Wray

Aug 30, 2012
Heavy bleeding? vitamin D and NAC
by: Wray

Hi Susie The brand you've ordered is very good, but I've given you the link to one Dr Cannel recommends. Melasma is caused by excess oestrogen stimulating melanocytes, these make melanin, the pigmentation in all skin types, see here and here. It's often a sign of adrenal stress too. Progesterone can resolve the problem, as it suppresses the excess oestrogen and it takes the strain off the adrenals. These make progesterone before they can convert it into cortisol, one of our stress hormones. Stress drops progesterone levels, thereby allowing oestrogen to dominate. So I would hope the progesterone helps you, use it on your face too, I do morning and evening. SAD is caused by a lack of vitamin D, as you've guessed, so supplementing with it should help enormously. Progesterone and Vitamin D work synergistically, so you should find the combo of even greater benefit than one alone. Besides, a lack of vitamin D reduces the benefits of progesterone. I have given you advice on the constant bleeding, so you will need about 400mg/day. The Hot Flushes too. I see you've read about the NAC, but it needs to be at least 2000mg/day, not 200mg/day. It does help greatly, like progesterone the amount does have to be adjusted to suit. Minnesota is further north than where you live, so the sun's angle is very oblique in winter, less so in summer. She, if I recall correctly, had a test done, and found her level very low, hence the high dose of vitamin D she was taking. Please consider having one, as it makes it easier to judge how much to take to get the level up high quickly. Calcium D glucarate is very different to vitamin D, there's none in it. It helps to reduce oestrogen levels. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Continued below.

Aug 30, 2012
Heavy bleeding? vitamin D and NAC Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. I usually recommend LEF for any supplements, they really know what they're doing and have excellent advice too. I can't tell you how much to buy, it's up to your pocket! But I have given you the info about the 30% discount if you decide to buy that much. Thanks for considering the Natpro. I've done as you suggested, this is in answer to another page, I will paste it there too. Take care Wray

Aug 31, 2012
do I need to have a period at all?
by: Susie M

Hi,

Since I am 53 and should be going into menopause soon...can I just stop my period altogether? I am going to use Natpro to control my heavy and constant bleeding. But... I want to know if I can actually take enough of the Natpro, NAC and vitamin D in combination to stop bleeding altogether and never have a period until I naturally go into menopause?

I want to know if I NEED to have a period of any length, any bleeding at all, ever...at the age of 53? When I say NEED, I mean for my health; does a woman need to have periods if they don't want or can't have children? I thought that periods are for the purpose of being able to having children at some point????

I have all the other pre-menopausal symptoms and my doctor thinks it might not be too long before I hit menopause. I asked my mother what age she was when she hit menopause and she is 87 yrs old now and said she can't remember. She may have hit it later in age than most because she was able to have her last baby at 40 yrs old. Is was a unplanned pregnancy. She was not using any medical help to conceive this last child.

Sep 01, 2012
do I need to have a period at all?
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I see you did ask your mother, and she can't remember, so no help there. Sometimes the 400mg/day does stop the period, but generally is has to be higher. One woman was given 900mg/day by her doctor for her heavy bleeding, which effectively stopped it. She wrote to me asking if it was safe, it is. But I suggested she dropped it to 600mg/day as I felt this would still stop it, it did. She found that she started bleeding (normally thank heavens) when she went down to 400mg/day. We do have more info about bleeding on our Menstruation page. Periods are not for the purpose of having children. Their sole reason is to clean out the uterus after the lining has built up ready for a fertilised egg to embed. If the lining builds excessively it can lead to serious problems in the uterus. Likewise heavy, continual bleeding is not healthy either. If sufficient progesterone is used, it suppresses oestrogen to the extent it can't build the lining. This is not harmful, unlike some contraceptives or HRT which can also stop it too. Take care Wray

Sep 01, 2012
how long to wait to increase progesterone dosage?
by: Susie M

I have your recommendation to take 400 mg's/day of Natpro as a start to controlling my bleeding problems. I will also take vitamin D and NAC to start with the Natpro. I will consider adding other supplements at your suggestion after I start with the above three to see if they are all I need to resolve my problems.

I understand that 400 mg's of Natpro is only a recommendation to start with since everyone reacts differently. How long do I wait to see ANY improvement before increasing the 400 mg dosage? In "ANY" improvement, I mean, the bleeding problem is not completely resolved but I notice SOME improvement like its lighter bleeding or the heavy bleeding is not lasting as long, etc. Do I wait days, weeks or months to experiment with increasing the dosage?

If I don't see some/any improvement then I would guess that I would need to increase the amount of Natpro first before playing with the NAC or the vitamin D dosages. Am I correct about that? If am correct, is it similar to the process on how you are to decrease your Natpro doses? What are the increments that I raise the dose? How many days do I wait for those particular increment doses?

Since cost is a factor, I would hope that I would not end up needing much more than 400 mg's/day. I don't want to waste this costly product by using more than needed by increasing the dosage too soon before giving it a chance to work. On the other hand, not using enough could also be a waste of product by putting you in oestrogen along with postponing your ultimate resolve of the problems. I certainly don't want that.

Now for the questions about increasing the NAC and vitamin D. I know that a blood test will tell me where my vitamin D levels are. But if the bleeding does not stop while taking the Natpro (assuming I am experimenting with dosage levels and see little or no results), when do I consider increasing Vitamin D, if at all? I plan to start with 10,000 IU's of vitamin D until I can get to my doctor to ask for a 25(OH)D test at the end of the month. I plan to ask for a saliva hormone level test too. What is the recommended increments for the vitamin D?

Same questions for the 2000 mg's/day of NAC you recommended for me to start with. When should I consider playing around with the NAC dosage, if at all? What increments do I increase to and how often?

I ordered 21 tubes of Natpro along with vitamin D and NAC. I only received the vitamin D so far. I should have everything here by September 5th. I am anxious to start my progesterone therapy and end my problems. I took my first vitamin D 10,000 IU cap today even though I have not had my levels tested yet. Just excited to start. I wanted to get my ducks in a row as far as starting dosage information (which I received...thank you) and what to try next if the problem was not going away at the starting dosage's of Natpro, NAC and vitamin D.

Sep 03, 2012
how long to wait to increase progesterone dosage?
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I'm encouraged by your attitude, but can't answer your questions exactly. Some women have noticed a reduction in blood flow within days, in others it takes longer. But none have experienced it taking weeks. It's not a hard and fast change either, there are up days and down days. Mostly depending on what we do or eat, or if affected by extra stress. If you recall from Annie's journey, she had many up and down days. I suggest you increase the NAC first, as it's cheaper than the Natpro, but please watch for any nausea. Some can experience this, I don't at all, even on an empty tummy. If you should get any, split the doses over the day, and take it after food. Increments of 500mg/day would be a good start, staying on the dose for a week or two before increasing further. It's better when increasing progesterone to use a high amount, say 100mg, rather than small increments. I've found these can cause oestrogen dominance, but again it depends on the woman. Vitamin D doesn't need to be increased if bleeding is continuing, it needs to be taken in order to get levels up. This is why I suggest a blood test before taking any, to check the initial level. If it's very low I suggest 20,000iu's per day for a month, to get it up fast. Then the following month 10,000iu's, and the third month 5000iu's, then have another test done. Repeating this protocol until levels are in the 70-100ng/ml range. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Sep 07, 2012
can progesterone cream reverse the melasma I have on my face?
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I have melasma on my face. Can Natpro reverse this for me? I know form what I have read that it can keep it at bay but I am asking if it can get rid of the melasma I already have? If this is possible what would be the dose? If I use 600 mg/day of Natpro is that enough for the melasma problem?

You also said that melasma can be associated with stressed adrenals. I know Natpro will help with stressed adrenals but is that enough or should I take something additional for the stressed adrenals? Is there a test to see if you have stressed adrenals?

I also have a question on a different subject.
My grand daughter who is 2 1/2 yrs old has really bad eczema. Can Natpro help the eczema? If so, what dose and how often? Is it only to be rubbed on the eczema areas or can it be put anywhere?

Sep 08, 2012
can progesterone cream reverse the melasma I have on my face?
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Excess oestrogen stimulates melanocytes, these make melanin, the pigmentation in all skin types, see here and here. By suppressing excess oestrogen progesterone can help. But they can be a very persistent problem. One woman found using a cream which has wormwood extract in it and taking an internal wormwood-based liquid helped. But I can't vouch for this. Women who have been helped by progesterone don't normally use as much as 600mg/day. More in the region of 200mg/day, but again it depends on the individual and skin type. I suggest you try the progesterone first, before adding other supplements for the stressed adrenals. If it doesn't help, then add them, but doing both at once you'll not know which helped. This is a good site to look through for Adrenal Fatigue. Eczema is a difficult one, as so many things cause it. I imagine all toxins have been eliminated like fabric softener, harsh shampoos and detergents for clothes? It could be all she needs is more of the good oils and fats in her diet, please try this first. I once advised a mother with a similar aged child. I suggested 1/4 tsp flax oil once a day. It was over a long weekend and she'd gone away, but forgot how much I suggested and gave him 1 tsp a day instead. I told her it would take some time to go. Well she phoned me when back to say it had cleared completely! Coconut oil is another very good option, with a far better taste than the flax. See this excellent site by Dr. Mary Enig If the oil doesn't help then by all means try the progesterone. There's more info about infants on our page How to use progesterone cream. Rubbing it on the area affected is always better, I've found it works quicker. This applies to any problem, i.e. burns, minor wounds, piles, on the tummy for period cramps etc. Take care Wray

Sep 10, 2012
How long do I need to wait after using Natpro before I can go swimming or take a shower?
by: Susie M

I wanted to know how long I have to wait after using Natpro before I can go swimming or take a shower? I don't want to waste my cream application dose by washing it off too soon. Is there a time frame that it needs to soak completely into your skin for the full benefit?

It has been stated that progesterone levels begin dropping after about 13 hours so after sleeping you should put some more Natpro on in the morning. Although I know that Natpro will help me with sleeping, I am still having some trouble sleeping. There are times when I can't get to sleep until 2:00 or 3:00am even with the aid of melatonin or other sleep aids. I also suffer from restless sleep so when I am able to get to sleep, I don't get into much deep sleep.
It can sometimes be 13 to 15 hours from my last dose of Natpro before I wake up.
I am worried that my progesterone levels are really low when I wake up so I put an application dose of Natpro on right when I get up, before I take a shower or eat breakfast.

I worry that I am washing off much of my Natpro by taking a shower too soon after the application. There has been a few situations where I have just applied a dose of Natpro only to get invited, at a last minuets notice, to take my grandkids swimming. I don't know if I need to wait a certain amount of time before going in the pool so that I don't end up washing off the full benefits of the Natpro application dose that I had just put on.

Is 15 minuets enough time to wait before showering or swimming? I rub the cream in until it disappears into my skin and the area starts to feel dry of cream. I should probably ask if that is good enough to get the cream into my body or should I massage it in for a longer period of time?

Sep 11, 2012
How long do I need to wait after using Natpro before I can go swimming or take a shower?
by: Wray

Hi Susie M You need to wait about 5 mins for it to get into the skin. I must confess to only rubbing it in lightly, then dressing or getting into bed, I don't take time to rub it in well. Do you really sleep for 13 to 15 hours?! I always apply it after my bath at night, and then when I get up in the morning before dressing. I tend to sleep for 7-8 hours a night. I often use it during the day too. If you have problems with sleep, in could be because you don't have enough salt, see here. Or if you have difficulty falling asleep it could be you lack tyrosine. This stops the mind buzzing, which often keeps us awake. Tyrosine is essential for any stressful situation, cold, fatigue, emotional trauma, prolonged work, sleep deprivation, it improves memory, cognition and physical performance. A drop in tyrosine depletes dopamine. But the rate limiting step in dopamine synthesis is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. Insufficient levels of vitamin D inhibit tyrosine hydroxylase, resulting in a disturbance in the dopamine pathway. I know you are taking this, but please have a test done to check your level. Lack of vitamin D also affects sleep, see here and here. Take care Wray

Sep 11, 2012
How long do I need to wait after using Natpro before I can go swimming or take a shower?
by: Susie M

I guess I did not write it correctly. I don't sleep of 13 to 15 hours. I wish. I usually only sleep for about 5 hours and not very good deep sleep. That is my sleeping problem. I have a hard time getting to sleep and then I can't stay asleep through the night. I might sleep for and hour or so and then I wake up and have to try to get back to sleep again. I take high blood pressure meds and one of them is a diuretic so I usually end up having to get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. Sometimes melatonin will help me get to sleep but sometimes it does not.

The 13 to 15 hours I was referring to was the time from the dose of Natpro until I wake in the morning. I take my B/P meds along with some supplements and melatonin and my last Natpro dose just before I go to bed. The problem is that I cant go to sleep most nights for several hours. I end up not being able to fall asleep until 2:00 am and sometimes even later. I always wake up at around 7:30 am, it's my body clock wake up time no matter what time I fall asleep. If I can not fall asleep until 2:00 or 3:00am then I will try to see if I can go back t9o sleep after I wake at 7:30 am. Some times I can and sometimes I can't. I think that is partially why I struggle with brain fog and memory issues and not being able to lose weight. The other reason is the hormone issue. I don't feel good with only 5 or 6 hours of toss and turning along with small doses of sleep mixed with wakefulness.

By the way, here is my update since using Natpro:
I started on 9/5/12 (400 mg's)along with 10,000 Iu's vit D and 2700 mg's of NAC. My heavy bleeding was alread in swing for about 10 days when I started. Before that it was fairly light but constant for the last 3 weeks or so. Before the light 3 weeks it was a period of very heavy.

I don't know when I have an actual period or even if I have one at all. When I do bleed heavy it could be for weeks or just a few days in a row. The same with the light bleeding. It could be for weeks or just for days. I don't know if you would call the light bleeding spotting or not. I don't keep track any more because there was no pattern to it so it seemed pointless. I just never know when I will end up not being able to leave the house because the bleeding is so heavy.

The second day I decided to up the dose of NAC to 600 mg's. I have spent days reading other womens stories on this site. I decided I did not want to fool around and to go full force so I went with the 600 mgs to get away from oestrogen as soon as I could. I am going to up my NAC to 3600 today. I ordered a better apsorbed version Vitimin D (Dr Canelle's)and paid for the 2 day shipping. I continue to hope for this to stop.

Sep 12, 2012
How long do I need to wait after using Natpro before I can go swimming or take a shower?
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Thanks for clearing it up for me. It is a very troubled sleep you have, no one could survive well on that. And you are right, lack of sleep does affect our weight. I do hope it resolves soon, the bleeding too. I can't tell when it will slow down, but it's seems with others who have tried this, that it does take a few days. I'm delighted you're going to try Dr Cannell's vitamin D, it has all the correct co-factors with it. I hope soon your BP comes down too, progesterone does help slightly, as it inhibits aldosterone. But a lack of vitamin D can cause this too. When it's too low the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system kicks in, see here, here here and here. Progesterone is an excellent diuretic. I'm not sure if I told you this, but there's info about it on our Traumatic Brain Injury page. The problem with any natural therapy is it takes time. If you look through all your symptoms, or those of others, there are so many which need putting right. We have no way of telling which will be helped first. I noticed my hot flushes went in 10 days when I started using progesterone. Then slowly others started going, until finally 6 months later I could say I was symptom free. But I wasn't using high amounts, just the standard recommended. The last symptom to be helped was my memory. I had diagnosed myself with early onset senile dementia! I couldn't remember a thing, even lost my car in a parking lot after going shopping! I began to get panicky, until I thought of walking up and down the rows pressing the locking remote. It finally responded, what relief. Dementia affects more women than men, I do wonder if all those poor souls in homes are suffering from excess oestrogen. HRT can cause it too. Take care Wray

Sep 12, 2012
a question regarding my sister and her severe psoriatic arthritis
by: Susie M

psoriatic arthritis
by: Susie

My sister lives in Michigan and has severe psoriatic arthritis. She is 56 yrs old and was diagnosed (I am guessing here) about 15 years ago. Her skin clears up somewhat if she sits in the sun for about a half hour everyday that the weather in Michigan allows. Sad to say, that is not very much out of the year that the weather is warm enough to sit outside exposing her limbs with the sun out. it also happens to rain quite a bit in the summer there which does not help. it is obvious that it is the vitamin D that is somewhat helping the skin problems that psoriatic arthritis brings.

She takes 8,000 IU's vitamin D supplement but I don't know if she was tested. What dosage of vitamin D should she take every day to help her condition? I would suspect she would need more than most. She also suffers from extreme inflammation and joint pain and stiffness. She is very puffy all over. Her scalp flakes to an extreme do to her P/S. She has patches of psoriasis all over her body. She is seeing a specialist and is on many medications and supplements. Although I don't know the medications or supplements. I have seen the amounts of pills she takes daily. She loves her doctor and I gather he is really trying to help her any way he knows how. She has said her severe case has stumped him on what more he can do for her. Can you recommend anything that would help her and the doses she should take. Progesterone, Vitamin D, etc???

Sep 13, 2012
a question regarding my sister and her severe psoriatic arthritis
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Firstly I must apologise about not replying to the comment you made on Shirley's page, I've no idea why. I remember reading it on the server site, but it didn't come through to me to answer. I only found it again by putting your name and psoriasis into the search field. I would ask you to get your sister to read the papers I gave Shirley, the link is here. I've given her all I have on the subject. Michigan sounds a bit like Canada with respect to sunshine. Your sister is taking a good dose of vitamin D, but she should have a test done. It could be she's not absorbing it, or the psoriasis is so severe it's not sufficient. Once she knows her level the amount she should take could be determined. She needs to get her level to around 100ng/ml. As you pointed out, her skin clears a bit when she sits in the sun. Is there any chance of her finding a sun bed she could use? Topical analogues of vitamin D have been used with some success in studies, but I'm not in favour of synthetic drugs. Typically it appears no study has been done using natural vitamin D in topical form. There are some vitamin D creams on the market, we're developing one too but it's not ready yet. Although I don't believe the 5000iu's/ml, the highest found in some of them, is high enough to help. Possibly if she used that in conjunction with taking it, it might, I'm sure it would soothe the skin. And of course progesterone. Any severe problem requires high amounts, so I would suggest about 500mg/day. As you know using too little exacerbates the inflammatory response due to stimulating oestrogen. Those papers I gave Shirley show oestrogen is high in all RA cases, so too the MMPs. The last thing your sister needs is to ramp those up. You say she takes supplements, often these are meaningless as the dose is too low. She needs large quantities of antioxidants to combat the Inflammation. Take care Wray

Sep 14, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Susie M

Hi,

I am on my 9th day of progesterone therapy with Natpro, 600 mg's, NAC 3600 mg's and 20,000 vitamin D. I have had a few days where the bleeding was lighter and then somewhere it is lighter during the day but became heavy with flooding and alot of thick clotting in the evening around 7:00 to 9:00pm. Two evenings I woke up to bleeding through my clothes but then slowed down in the morning and the following day. By the way, I always have large clots when the bleeding becomes heavy and flooding for years before I started the Natpro 9 days ago. I have also had cramping on and off the entire 9 days.

I increased my NAC from 2700 mgs to 3600 mg's 3 days ago. I have increase my Vitamin D from 10,000 IU's to 20,000 IU's two days ago because I really get no sun at all. I will however ask for a D test when I go back to the doctor at the end of this month. Tonight I started flooding at 7:00 pm right through a tampon and pad. I changed my clothes and did it again just an hour later. So I put on more Natpro. I am using the Natpro every few hours throughout the day as best spaced out as I can. I have never stopped bleeding since starting Natpro.

I have tried to put on the Natpro every hour as suggested but I just seem to get busy and forget to look at the time, then when I do check the clock 2 or 3 hours have passed. I do not think of myself as a person who gets stressed easily. I was perfectly calm, relaxing and just sitting watching TV when the flooding started and there was no stressful things going on at all earlier in the day.

I am going to add on another 100 mgs of Natpro tonight before I go to bed since I have already put on my 600 mgs because of the flooding and it is only 9pm. I want to have a dose before I go to bed (probably around 11:30pm or a little later) so it will be in my system until the morning and to try to keep from flooding anymore in the middle of the night.

My order of calcium D glucarate will be here tomorrow and I plan on taking 3000 mg's. I was going to wait a few days until after taking the C/D/G to decide if I wanted to increase my Natpro dose by another 100 mgs to 700 mgs/day. But with this flooding tonight I changed my mind.

Do you think I made a good choice to increase the Natpro tonight and have a dose before bed? What do you suggest I should do? At this point I really have thrown the worry of the cost of the Natpro or any additional supplements out the window because I am anxious to just get to the point where the bleeding will stop, especially the flooding. I would rather go really high on the Natpro if it you think going to 900 or more will stop the bleeding soon and then gradually lower the dosage to see where I can stay stable.

As I am finishing this comment I have had to stop, yet again, a third time to change my clothes. More flooding with clots right through my tampon, night-time pad, underwear and Pj's. I may be up and down all through the night.




Sep 14, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I've not come across someone with such severe bleeding as you. I was going to suggest you have a check for fibroids, but I know your doctor said you didn't have any. Unfortunately natural therapies take time to correct any imbalance and I'm concerned you are loosing so much blood. There are women who have to go very high before relief was found, not necessarily for heavy bleeding, see here. Normally 600mg/day will stop the bleeding. But one woman wrote in to say her doctor put her on 900mg/day which did stop it. So you could try this, if you're happy with the added cost. Others have found it wasn't until their vitamin D level was very high, that unresolved symptoms cleared, in spite of the progesterone. I feel if the bleeding continues for too long, an ablation might be the only answer. Please keep in touch. Take care Wray

Sep 14, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I thought about ablation last year. I did some research to see what women who had it thought. I wanted to know if they felt it worked for them and if the effects were long lasting or did it need to be repeated. I also wanted to know if they had reported any side effects or if there were many who had it done, had a bad experience and would not recommend it.

I know that you can always find negative reviews on anything. I have even seen it on your site. But I found a common complaint and it was from pages and pages of women who had an ablation and they said the side effects (I don't know what else to call it) were as bad as the initial bleeding problem. They all said the same thing....after a few months of having the ablation, they experienced stomach bloating and continual weight gain despite dieting and exercising. There were some women who have been thin all their lives who after the ablation now suddenly had the weight gain problem. This was even reported by those who had the ablation years before. It seem to be permanent and without resolve. There were enough women complaining that I decided I would not chance such a horrible side effect. Oh, and many of the women said that their stomach's bloated to the point of looking 6 months pregnant and having people ask when they were due.

I have had doctors suggest I have ablation, D & C, and a Hysterectomy. I want to avoid all of these and so I have just been living with my problems trying to wait it out until I finally go into menopause as my last doctor suggested. I still kept searching for supplements or suggestions on how to stop the constant bleeding (heavy and light) until I found your site. What a miracle!! Although I have not hit success yet, I am certain I will eventually. What is explained on this site is so logical that I have the confidence that it will work once I figure out by trial what combo of supplements/vitamins and dose of Natpro I need.

After reading some more stories on your site today I have a question for you. I read "High dose D3 and estrogen dominance" by CL(USA). I read the entire thread. Since I increased my Vit D to 20,000 IU's two days ago could that have cause an oestrogen dominance increase to surface? Do you think I might need to take a booster dose of vitamin D, 100,000 IU's for 6 days like Annette did and then reduce down to 10,000 or 20,000 IU's? If so, how do you think I should go about the reducing? Should I decrease my a certain amount (you tell me?) of IU's per day and then stay at that for a few days before reducing again, like when reducing Natpro? I know you might say to wait for the results of my Vit D test but the results will most likely take a few weeks to a month from now to receive. I really hate to wait that long continuing to bleed. I so want to continue by trying different things to get this under control.





Sep 15, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I really admire your tenacity in following the natural route, and appreciate all the research you've done too. And I thank you for realising it's not a quick fix, or an easy one, there is much trial and error in it. I do agree any invasive surgery is not an option if there's another gentler option. I was just concerned about your blood loss, but you evidently understand that well enough to go forward. Like all the systems in the body, there's a feedback loop from the uterus to the hypothalamus. Burning, freezing and all the other techniques used to destroy the endometrium would disrupt that loop, which probably accounts for the adverse symptoms experienced by those women. The techniques read like a horror story from the middle ages! I'm happy you've decided against it. That comment made about the D3 and oestrogen dominance fascinated me, as I'd not come across it before. And of course I've not found any papers on it either, and likely never will. But a lack of vitamin D3 reduces the benefits of progesterone, so increasing the D3 would in effect increase progesterone's affect, in turn causing oestrogen to be stimulated. Interestingly women who do get their levels of D3 up find unresolved symptoms, in spite of high amounts of progesterone, do resolve. We've had so much correspondence, I'm not sure if I've given you this rather amusing page here. There are comments to this effect. To increase it or not, I'd be reluctant to say yes, you are already taking a very good dose. It might increase the oestrogen dominance affect yet again, as we don't know how low you were in the first place. It's also essential to make sure you're taking enough magnesium too. You could try it for 6 days and see what affect it has. It's safe to come down to the 20,000iu's again. It's only if taking the 100,000iu's for a month that it would be essential to reduce slowly. If you don't want to wait so long for your D test, why not get a test kit from Birmingham Hospital. It costs about $50, by far the cheapest test there is. Take care Wray

Sep 15, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Susie M

I tried to find out what amounts of magnesium citrate, boron, zinc and vitamin K to take with the six days of 100,000 vitamin D but an Internet search did not turn up the information I was looking for. Dr Cannell writes that these are other items are needed for the vitamin D to properly metabolize in your system.

The Vitamin D I want to order for the 6 days is from Bio Tech and is 50,000 IU caps. That way I don't have to take and use up 20 caps of my new bottle of Dr. Cannell's advanced vitamin D that contains all the above mentioned vitamin and minerals needed to properly metabolize the vitamin D. I only need to take 2 of the Bio Tech caps but it only contains the vitamin D and nothing else. This seems strange to me. If you need to take the other vitamins and minerals with the vitamin D for the D to be fully mobilized.... then why wouldn't those other ingredients be added in the 50,000 IU caps. They are in the other Bio Tech 5000 IU cap vitamin D that Dr Cannell recommends and you sent a link? That is why I sent back my order of the 10,000 IU caps. That brand(Solgar)of vitamin D that I returned only had the vitamin D with nothing else added for the proper mobilization.




Sep 16, 2012
update on bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Susie M It's often the case with vitamin D supplements, the co-factors are not added. Possibly because some of them people take anyway. I don't know of a definitive study on the amounts of the other items needed if a high dose of vitamin D is taken. But as you're only going to take it for 6 days I don't think you should be unduly worried. This could be another reason they haven't added the others, the size of the cap would be far too large! If you're concerned then take one of the caps from Dr Cannell at the same time. Take care Wray

Sep 21, 2012
Question about balding in men
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

My question is about a crown baldness in men. If an older man in his 50's has thinning hair ion the crown of his head can Natpro stop the thinning hair? If not, can it slow it down at the least? The is assuming he has no Heath problems like high blood pressure or other possible contributors/ symptons and has no facial hair loss going on. There has always been somwhat of an oily scalp and face but never any acne, only nice clear skin even as an adolescent. Can Natpro block the production of DHT. I read the story of the man who was using 40 mgs of progesterone cream. I am asking for your recomandation on tthe amount of Natpro to use if this hair thinning (I assume it's male pattern baldness) can be stopped or slowed. I would like to start him on the high side and then reducing until staple to try to avoid any oestrogen symptoms from coming on from a too small dose.

I will send an update on where my bleeding is at after I finish my week of mega doseing on vitamin D. I plan on having my level checked after the week to see if I need to continue longer with the mega dose of D or if I can reduce to the normal doses of the 10,000 to 15,000 IU/day. If my levels of D are up at that point and since I have also increased my NAC to 3600 mg/day and also I am taking Cal D G of 3000 mg/day plus my 700 mg/day of Natpro.....and I still have not seen a reduction in in my bleeding do you suggest I still try to increase the NAC and/or the Cal D G first or do you thing I should increase the Natpro instead or all three? At what doses do you suggest for the NAC and Cal D G? I know you have already said to use 100 mg increases for the Natpro.

I am assuming from further reading on this site that the maximum amount of Natpro others have taken to finally see results have been in the 900 to 1000 mg range. So I would hope that I will not have to go beyond that to see some results. I know it takes time. That is why I am trying to make sure I am taking other important supplements in the best doses to help the progesterone achieve the best results. I will also increase the Natpro in slow 100 mgs doses giving it time in between increases for improvement.

I will never give up. I am convinced this it the right path and really the only path I want to take to slolve my problems. I am however going to try to get over the oestrogen dominance as soon as possible no matter what the monetary cost.

I just split the cost with my niece for another large order of Natpro. I told her about this progesterone therapy site and she wants to use Natpro for her problems too. I have also told my sister and my best friend. I plan on telling whoever I can that is suffering from health issues to take a look at this site. Many thanks Wray for all your help and wealth of information.

Sep 21, 2012
Question about balding in men
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I can't believe with all your taking and the progesterone you're using that it hasn't reduced the blood flow a little. I'm very disappointed, and don't know what to suggest next. Yes the higher amounts of progesterone others have used have helped, but their problems were mostly emotional ones. I would suggest increasing whichever is cheaper first! I can't remember the highest dose for the Cal DG, maybe the container tells you. The NAC is safe up to 10g/day, Eric Braverman is very helpful on all the amino acids. You might like to get his book called 'The Healing Nutrients Within'. He also mentions.....'Prepared as an ointment to spread on the skin, N-acetyl-cysteine reduced skin reactions, prevented hair loss, and protected mucous membranes of the eyes." I have made up a NAC cream, but it does have a strong sulphur smell, most off-putting! I had forgotten this aspect of the NAC for helping hair loss. This is often caused by oxidative stress, i.e. free radicals damaging the hair follicle causing it to stop hair growth. NAC being a powerful antioxidant would reverse the oxidative stress. I do mention this on our Hair Loss page. He also says....."All the horny layers of the skin, including hair and fingernails (keratin is 12 percent cystine), are high in cystine. There is evidence that the high-sulfur proteins are missing in the hair of people experiencing abnormal hair loss. Dietary supplementation with sulfur-containing amino acids like cystine increases the percentage of high-sulfur proteins in the hair of both experimental animals and humans. Preliminary findings indicate that daily dietary supplementation of cysteine and NAC increases hair-shaft diameter and hair-growth density in certain cases of human baldness and hair loss, and therefore may be useful in treating these conditions." But he also says..."However, it has a nauseating taste and smell and can cause vomiting." I'm now so used to the smell and taste it doesn't bother me. As you know I take the powder form. Our hair loss page does mention progesterone helping some men, but not others. Presumably because the problem wasn't hormonal, but due to some other cause, i.e. oxidative stress. The page also gives other nutrients which help. Bless you for not giving up, you are very persistent! I'm certainly learning a great deal from you, and once you come right, we'll have a good protocol to give to others. How kind of you to pass the website on to your family and friends! Take care Wray

Sep 26, 2012
update on heavy bleeding, pt 1
by: Susie M

Hi,

I had been bleeding heavy with large clots everyday straight in a row since about the last week of August. I started using Natpro 400 mg/day along with Vitamin D 10,000 IU/day, NAC 2700 and Calcium D-Glucarate 3000 on Sept 5th. I started to increase after a few days to 700 mg Natpro, 20,000 IU vit D, 3600 mg NAC and 3000 C D-G. On Sept 17th I increased the vitamin D to the mega dose of 210,000 IU/day and then just on the morning of Sept 21st my heavy clotted bleeding changed to very, very light bleeding.


I want to say that I have not gotten the results of my vitamin D test yet. But... I do think that I must have been extremely deficient of vitamin D and I think that my mega dosing was a huge factor in my heavy clotted bleeding subsiding down to very light bleeding. There is only a few drops of pink or red on my tampons every day. I don't know if this is called spotting. It only took 4 full days of mega dosing on vitamin D to make a difference. I am so happy. This period of about 25 days of heavy clotted bleeding was the longest I have ever gone with straight, every-day-in-a-row, heavy bleeding without an occasional day in between of let up to light bleeding.

Since mega dosing on the D, my Hot flashes are farther apart and last for shorter periods of time. I am finally getting sleepy at an early time of about 9 or 10pm. I still have trouble getting into deep sleep and staying asleep all night. My memory and foggy thinking has not improved as of yet though. And... I still can't loose weight.


Sep 26, 2012
pt 2
by: Susie M

Well, one thing at a time, right. I want to now work on getting rid of the light bleeding/spotting. I want to mention in case it is important that I did not really have much, if any, cramps during the heavy bleeding period but as soon as it turned to the light bleeding I have had mild but persistent cramps. I remember that Annie from Minnesota had also stopped her heavy bleeding eventually but still had the spotting. She added 3 additional supplements and finally within days the spotted ended. Since I am taking higher amounts of Natpro, NAC, Vit D and Calcium D-G then you recommend, I am thinking that increasing those will not be the answer to stop the light bleeding/spotting. I would like to try an additional supplement. Unlike what Annie did in adding 3 supplements I only want to add one at a time. That is the only way I can tell what would possibly make a difference and put a stop to the light bleeding.

It is very confusing as there are so many supplements out there but I had a few in mind. I found all on the Life Extension site. Pregnenolone(item #00700)is on my possible list but it does warn that it effects other hormones and not to take it if you have hormone -sensitive diseases. Then there is Pure IGF Extreme (item #17159. Then Pomegranate Extract (item #00956) and then lastly on the list is European Milk Thistle (Item# 01517). What do you suggest I should try either from my list or if you have something else not on my list in mind? What dose of whatever you recommend should I take?

Sep 27, 2012
update on heavy bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I'm so delighted, I can't tell you! And of course now I can advise others, although what they will think of me suggesting such a high dose of vitamin D is anyone's guess! There are so many dire warnings on the web, and of course doctors would never suggest it, unless it's part of a study. But I often take the huge doses too, specially if I feel a cold coming. It stops it in it's tracks, so I haven't had one for years now. I don't think increasing will change much, as that is a high dose, maybe it's now just a question of time. Your uterus needs that to heal. It's very interesting the hot flushes are being helped by the vitamin D. Obviously due to it's affect on progesterone. Although I'm amazed they hadn't gone with the amount of progesterone you were using. Maybe due to the low D level, all very fascinating. I would hope with all that D you will find your sleep improving. Did you try the advice on taking salt to help with the sleep? I can't remember if you did. I would hope the weight issue also resolves, as you said above 'one thing at a time'. Plus there are always other issues we are unaware of which often get priority, over the ones we are aware of. Have you tried rubbing the cream over your tummy area for the cramps? I know progesterone travels rapidly around the body, but I've found if applying it to a painful area it works quicker. I do agree about trying too many supplements at a time. I'm hesitant to suggest the pregnenolone. Yes it is the precursor to progesterone, but it's also the precursor to DHEA. There's no knowing which route it will take, and DHEA does increase testosterone levels. I can't find any evidence either, that IGF will help heal the uterus. To give you some idea "Insulin and insulin-like growth factor type 1 (IGF- I) are important modulators of growth and metabolic function in the central nervous system (CNS), and correspondingly, their receptors are abundantly expressed in the brain. Insulin and IGF-I are neurotropic since they can support neuronal growth, survival, and differentiation in the absence of other growth factors, and they promote neurite outgrowth, migration, protein synthesis, neuronal cytoskeletal protein expression, and nascent synapse formation. In addition, IGF-I regulates oligodendrocyte survival, development, and myelination." Did you find something to suggest it would help? Milk thistle is my favourite herb, I take it daily, and it goes into all the complexes we make. It does have a slight oestrogenic activity, but it's a herb that has so many benefits, that I tend to ignore this aspect. Continued below.

Sep 27, 2012
update on heavy bleeding Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M It does have antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties, see here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. Well all I can say is keep on asking me questions, I have found a study here which really excites me, only published last year. It's about taurine, another amino acid I have great faith in, I take it daily. It's a potent antioxidant and therefore high levels are found in all tissues which oxidise rapidly, namely the heart, eyes, liver and brain. It also acts as a neurotransmitter in the brain, and is very calming. But my excitement stems from hearing it's reduced in many abnormal uterine conditions, one of which is dysfunctional bleeding. The papers says..."As a women ends her reproductive years and ovulation tends to become less regular, endometrial hyperplasia may occur. So any abnormal bleeding in premenopausal or post- menopausal patients not on estrogen therapy should be evaluated by fractional uterine curetting to rule out the presence of endometrial or endocervical carcinoma." If you should consider taking it, I suggest 2000mg/day to begin with. It's very safe and unlike NAC doesn't cause nausea. Let me know if it helps. Take care Wray

Oct 05, 2012
need advice on another supplement
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

After reading all the information you sent I have decided to start with the Taurine. Can you recommend a brand to take that has a high does single pill? If I should take at least 2000mg/day or more then it would be nice to find a high dose formula. What brand do you use?

I will also take the milk thistle after I see what the results of the Taurine do for then light bleeding. I now believe that both supplements will be of benefit to me to take in the long term but I want to see what exactly stops the bleeding altogether so I am adding only one supplement at a time. When I begin to take the Milk thistle what dose should I take? Is the Milk thistle dose recommended to stop the bleeding higher than a normal dose(if the Taurine fails to stop the bleeding)?

I have read that many women are using DIM on this site. What to you think of this supplement for my specific problems? I read that it levels out hormones but I am not sure if it would help or hurt my particular situation. If you think it could help me, what dose would you recommend I take of DIM? Again I would be adding DIM after adding the taurine and the milk thistle.

After reading Ray Peat's site, I do believe I am suffering from Hypothyroidism. It was so interesting. Obviously I have been low in vitamin D and progesterone and high in estrogen which all contribute to Hypothyroidism. But over the years I have had many doctors ask me if I have had my thyroid checked. Even doctors that I took my children to. After taking care of my child the doctor would look at me from across the room and ask me about my thyroid. I have had many blood tests for a thyroid problem, only to have them come out as normal. I even had a thyroid ultra sound that came out as normal. Yet somehow all these different doctors seem to see me and ask. I can only imagine that I must look like I have a small goiter. If I really do then wouldn't that at least show up with a thyroid ultra sound on my neck area? Strange. I have looked on line at pictures of small goiters and I don't think I look like any of those photos. But I have some of the symptoms and after reading Ray Peat's site I gather many people have Hypothyroidism and don't know it or are undiagnosed.

The good thing is that using Natpro and taking the vitamin D will only help the Hypothyroidism. But I am wondering if I could benefit more by taking the T3 slow release thyroid medication. Yet I cold never get a doctor to believe I could have Hypothyroidism if blood tests and ultra sounds come out normal on me. I did read on Ray Peat's site that there really is not a accurate test for Hypothyroidism. So what can I do?

Oct 07, 2012
need advice on another supplement
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I'm delighted you're going to try the taurine. You'll be the first person I've corresponded with who's trying it for the bleeding, do let me know if it helps you. As for brand, I usually recommend LEF for everything. As for which brand I take, none! I buy all my supplements in bulk from a wholesaler for the complexes we make up, so I take them all in powder form. It's very much cheaper this way too, and no excipients either. Although some of them do taste rather strange! LEF do have many of their supps in powder form too. I've found milk thistle seems to vary from 100-600mg/day of the silymarin portion. I take 420mg silymarin per day, as the 'Liver Doctor' Sandra Cabot, recommends this amount. I also take taurine via a complex we have, plus I add in extra each day. I'm sure it helps keep me calm and sane! For personal use only, I make up a 2% solution for eye drops, it's vital for the eyes and I use it every morning and night to clean them. It prevents oxidation of the retina. DIM is good, it's regarded as an anti-oestrogen. Oestrogen is broken down into 2 principle metabolites, 2-hydroxyestrone (2-OHE1) and 16-alpha hydroxyestrone (16alpha-OHE1). 16alpha-OHE1 is regarded as a potent oestrogen, whereas 2-OHE1 is a weaker oestrogen. In some studies DIM (3,3'-Diindolylmethane) increased levels of 2-OHE1, by doing so it also increases the ratio of 2-OHE1:16alpha-OHE1. This increased ratio is associated with a lower risk for breast cancer in some studies, not in others. It appears to have a positive affect on pancreatic, thyroid, prostate and gastric cancers too, and leukemia. The precursor to DIM is Indole 3 Carbinol (I3C) which also has antioxidant and anti-cancer properties. These are a selection of papers here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here Continued below.

Oct 07, 2012
need advice on another supplement Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M It doesn't actually get rid of oestrogen. But calcium D-glucarate does. Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. Incidentally this enzyme is produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus of course helping the liver detox too. Now I've given you another mouthful to read through! I don't think anyone really understands the thyroid, the tests can be so misleading too. I have done a page for our website, but it still needs lots of work on it. This is another site you could look through, hugely comprehensive, Stop the Thyroid Madness. I think T3 is on script only, so you'll have to find a doctor who mistrusts the tests, and is willing to give it to you. Take care Wray

Oct 19, 2012
Question for friend with fibroids
by: Susie M

Hi,

My friend has fibroids and I told her about how vitiman D can shrink them. I convinced her to order some Natpro and vitiman D. She said she was thinking about taking Fibrovan pills. I looked it up and the ingredients are .....
Nattokinase 100 mg *
EGCG 50 mg *
Lycopene 5 mg *

Then I found this information....

Fibrovan is made with Nattokinase : "an enzyme extracted and purified from a Japanese food called nattō. Nattō is a food made from fermented soybeans that has been eaten in Japan for many years. Nattō is produced by fermentation by adding the bacterium Bacillus natto, a beneficial bacteria, to boiled soybeans. The resulting nattokinase enzyme is produced when the bacterium acts on the soybeans. While other soy foods contain enzymes, it is only the nattō preparation that contains the specific nattokinase enzyme."
While those with estrogen problems should not eat soy products, this enzyme is safe. It does not negatively affect estrogen.

I don't know if this can be believed. I want to warn her if taking this product will cause extra estrogen to enter her body. This would cause her Natpro to not work as well and her fibroids to grow and not shrink which would be why she wants to take the Fibrovan pills.

What do you think? Have you heard of these Fibrovan pills for shrinking fibroids? Would they help used with vitiman D or hurt?

Oct 19, 2012
Question for friend with fibroids
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Normally fermented soy food is ok, as the enzymes and the fermentation process appear to alter the phytoestrogen content making it non viable. In the case of natto, this is the enzyme extracted from the nattokinase, and has obviously no soy in it at all. Natto has fibrinolytic activity, i.e. it prevents blood clots from growing. Clots are formed from fibrin, so it is possible it could help the fibroids. Although I can't find any studies on PubMed or Google Scholar regarding it's efficacy against them. This is a good page to read, the author has not seen any studies either. Natto also has anti-hypertensive and anti-platelet properties, a couple of studies have been done on this aspect. This page here says "....people today use it for reducing pain and treating a number of other disorders such as chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, uterine fibroids, infertility, cancer, muscle spasms, beriberi and hemorrhoids. However, it must be remembered that these usages are based on anecdotal reports..." Both the EGCG and the lycopene are antioxidants, but I don't know if they are specifically good for fibroids or not. Lycopene is normally given in doses of 8 to 30mg/day. Incidentally 250ml or a cup of tomato juice contains 23mg lycopene. One study on tumour growth used 50–100 mg/kg/day EGCG. Extrapolated this would be 2500-5000mg for a 50kg woman. As the fibroid is a benign tumour, far higher amounts than that given in the Fibrovan would need to be taken, see here. No harm will come of taking it, but probably cheaper to drink tomato juice, eat natto and take the EGCG! Take care Wray

Oct 20, 2012
Got my vitamin d results
by: Susie M

Hi,

I purchased a ZRT vitiman D test from the vitamin D council web site. I took the test and sent it in and I just got an email with my results. I don't understand what the results are. Perhaps you can help. I have been taking 210,000 IU/day for the past 34 days and was taking 20,000 IU/day for 2 weeks before that. My test results stated....330 H units ng/ml range 32-100.

I went to the vitiman D council web site to see if I could find out what a good D level was. The site said that if you ordered the ZRT test it would give an actual level number and NOT just a range or as they called it " normal within range" using the 32-100 range as an example of what they don't do in giving their exact level number off their test.

So I am confused as to what the 300 H means and why there is this 32-100 range. Is that my level, a set of range numbers in am within? If so then the vitiman D council states that is low and should be at least 50 to 75 and more is better. If they give you this 32-100 range then how do you know if you are at 32 or if you are at 100? There does not seem to be contact information on the vitiman D council site or the ZRT site to ask.

Hope you can help me figure out what my exact level is.

Oct 20, 2012
Got my vitamin d results
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I thought you were going to take the high dose vitamin D for 6 days! So your level is very high, that's what the H stands for. I suggest you give it a break for a couple of weeks. The range of 32-100ng/ml given is what they refer to as a normal range. I find it daft myself, as it's such a big range it's meaningless. Specialists are saying it should be a minimum of 50ng/ml, as we don't begin storing it until it gets to 40ng/ml, anything above this can then actually help us. Other less cautious specialists suggest 75-100ng/ml as the range, I agree with this. So I try to keep mine in the 90's, currently 91ng/ml at my last test. So as I said your level is very high at 330ng/ml. It will drop back to the normal range if you stop taking it for about 2 to 3 weeks. It would be a good idea to have another test done then, as you don't want to drop back down low again. I also suggest you increase the magnesium, I think you are already taking it. This should help prevent a rise in calcium which can occur if vitamin D is high. Also consider taking vitamin K, as this will prevent any excess calcium from being deposited where it shouldn't be, i.e. soft tissue. Let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Oct 20, 2012
Got my vitiman D results
by: Susie M

Hi,

I sure feel stupid. I thought the 330 with the H after it stood for a hormone level. LOL.

I was originally going to take the mega dose of D for a week but after reading more about mega dosing of vitamin D I decided to go longer, perhaps for a month. I was not getting ANY vitamin D at all.

I was in the house because of the heavy bleeding for about a month. I did not step outside that entire time. I am also not an outdoor person and normally don't go outside for any length of time. I always wear sunscreen when I am going to be outside so I figured I was super deficient. I read that it was not harmful to mega dose for a month or two.

My sister-in-laws doctor put her on a 50,000 Iu/day of D for 8 months and her levels did not go up. I suspect she was only taking D and no other supplements to metabolize the D. But after hearing how long her doctor had her mega dosing, I figured that mega dosing for only a month would be OK.

I know that doctors are warning about over using supplements but there seems to be not much backing to their claims. I watched the documentary "Food Matters" and there was alot about mega dosing on certain supplements to help certain ailments. Vitamin D was one of them.

Another thing...I ran out of the High Dose vitamin D and I started heavy bleeding for several days until my order of High D arrived. During those heavy bleeding days I only took a more normal amount of 20,000 IU's/day of vit D. Again as before, the heavy bleeding stopped within 4 days of going back to the 210,000 Iu's Day of D. I was back to the light bleeding/spotting again. It has been 9 days now of the light bleeding/spotting.

I have been on the Taurine for 13 days now taking 6000mg's, I started the Taurine the same day as my new order of large dose D arrived. I really think the high D stopped the heavy bleeding and not the taurine because the high dose of D stopped the heavy bleeding before in just 4 days same as this time. Also I don't think the Taurine is helping with stopping the light bleeding/spotting because it has been almost 2 weeks and I am still spotting. I have the European Milk Thistle and so I will start that now. I will continue on another page.

Oct 20, 2012
Got my vitiman D results page 2
by: Susie M

Page 2

Something strange happened. Three days ago, just for one day the 18th, in the middle of the 9 days of light bleeding/spotting straight...I had one day of heavy bleeding. I was trying to think what could have brought this on. there was nothing stressful that happened. But I did have some edamame hummus on the 17th. It is my favorite and I could eat it every day but I have not because it is high in isoflavones.

I just learned about the difference in isoflavones Phytoestrogens and lignan Phytoestrogens. I copied this...Lignans are found in healthful fruits, veggies and grains (e.g flax) and serve to block the action of other potentially harmful estrogen's. You educated me on Soy and that as long as it is fermented it is OK to consume.

I knew there were foods that were estrogenic but did not know what they all were. Soy was the one I knew just in the last month. I have been eating the edamame hummus for the past year on and off. I wonder if that contributed to my heavy bleeding. I am a vegetarian, I became one in the summer of 2011. My husband and several family members are vegan. I am sure I eat isoflavones everyday. We eat all kinds of beans almost everyday. So I would think it odd that eating some edamame hummus on the 17th would cause be to bleed heavy on the 18th but I do know now that edamame has one of the highest isoflavone amounts.

I am going to try an experiment and try eating the edamame Hummus again during a long stretch of light bleeding/spotting and see if the heavy bleeding happens again. Buy the way, on the 18th when I bled heavy I took an extra 1000mg of calcium D-glucarate (from 3000mg/day to 4000) to flush the estrogen from the edamame out. It must have worked because the next day on the 19th and today on the 20th I am only spotting. I have continued to take the extra Calcium/D/G these last 3 days. Do you think that if I increase the Calcium/D/G even more that the spotting will stop or do you think I should increase the progesterone above the 700 mg/day I am taking?

Oct 23, 2012
Got my vitiman D results
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Your extraordinary willingness to experiment helps me no end! I love it too, and never understand why others are so fearful of it. Don't feel stupid, so many ask me to interpret their results, they are often couched in very obscure terms! It's evident you absorb vitamin D very efficiently, many don't due to gut dysbiosis, malabsorption problems etc. You probably were very deficient, this is partly why I like a test done first to see how much should be taken and for how long to get the level up, well yours is now! So please give it a break for a maybe a month, and then have another test done. Except you start bleeding again, so it's a difficult choice. Maybe you could consider trying 50,000iu's per day and see if that also works, if not increase to 100,000iu's. But I don't think you should stay on the 210,000iu's as that's far too high with the level you have. High dosing in itself is not harmful, they've given amounts up to 500,000iu's in one dose to very elderly women. But over time it is. Are you sure your sister in law was on 50,000iu's per day, and not per month? As this is a very normal dosing pattern doctors follow. As we are designed to make vitamin D daily, it's not a good route. That's an excellent film, and yes they're always warnings about taking supps in high doses, but from all the studies I've read the only ones which work have used high doses. The problem lies in not teaching doctors about nutrients, which after all is what we are made of! Please give the taurine time. One thing I didn't know, is that you are a vegetarian, taurine is not found in any veggies. It's not found in the vegetable kingdom at all, only found in meat. We can convert it from cysteine, but cysteine is critical for the manufacture of glutathione, and is often low. If cysteine and glutathione are low, and this is often low too, our immune system becomes compromised. Glutathione is the most important endogenous antioxidant we make. The cell defends itself by releasing spurts of nitric oxide, this kills any pathogen. If excess NO is released, often due to too many pathogens, the cell itself dies. NO is a free radical hence cellular death. Before the death of the cell it becomes inflamed, and how many people suffer from inflammation. Glutathione's role is to absorb all the excess oxygen from the NO to protect the cell. People who are often ill, with compromised immune systems, are always found to be low in glutathione. Cysteine is the rate limiting step in glutathione synthesis, because it's low in food. The other two aminos which make up glutathione are glutamine and glycine, these are usually abundant in food. Although if the body is stressed, glutamine becomes a conditionally essential amino acid, as we can't produce enough from food for our needs. So this makes ingesting taurine from meat, or supplements, all important. Continued below.

Oct 23, 2012
Got my vitiman D results Part 2
by: Wray

I used to be a vegetarian, for four years, but I was always tired and hungry, and put on weight. So I went back to eating meat and fish. There's more taurine in the heart than all the other aminos added together. It's vital for any tissues which suffer from high oxidation, as it's a potent antioxidant. So it's essential for the heart, eyes, brain and liver. It's an osmolyte, needed to ensure the electrolytes flow in and out of cells. I used to get calf cramps, and took magnesium for it. Now I take taurine and never have them, evidently I was getting enough magnesium from my food, but not enough taurine, hence the cramps. The photostrogens are found in all foods, even meat has them, we can't avoid them. The blurb you copied above is not true, a phytoestrogen is a phytoestrogen! They all have an oestrogenic affect, all of them! The highest content is found in oil, oilseeds and nuts, but as we don't eat large amounts of these, I continue to use them in my food. They are followed by the grains and legumes, but as we eat large amounts of these, they should all be avoided. Leaves contain them, but the benefit of leaves is so huge, I still eat plenty of these. These sites give lists of all the foods that have phytoestrogens in them, see here, here and here. These papers here and here, on infertility in sheep, show how a high level of phytoestrogens in food can affect the reproductive organs. The leaves of legumes are very high in phytoestrogens. In fact alfalfa powder can cause lupus like symptoms in people who take it. High oestrogen and low progesterone are found in lupus patients. You now have my curiosity up. I believe it's possible all the beans you are eating could be causing your problems. I'm going to ask you to stop eating all of them, including the hummus. Avoid all the grains too, and the so called 'good' phytoestrogens like flax. One of the arguments for eating phytoestrogens or taking isoflavones, is their action of blocking the oestrogen receptors. But they all still have an oestrogenic affect! And over time and high consumption of them, will lead to the same stimulating affect any oestrogen will have, see here. Very interesting the Ca-D glucarate helped you, I think stick to that, as you are already using a lot of progesterone. It depends which is the more costly of course, as I'm all in favour of reducing costs. Take care Wray

Oct 23, 2012
Call from Dr Cannell
by: Susie M

Hi,

I want anyone reading this, not to do what I did. It was a bad choice on my part to take so much vitiman D. I got a call yesterday from Dr Cannell of the vitiman D council telling me my D level was way to high. I had ordered the ZRT D test from the D councils web site so that was why he knew my test results. He did tell me that he did not think I had done any damage to my body but he advised me to stop taking vitiman D altogether for 3 months. He told me to get my D level checked at that 3 month point and if it was in the 100 range or less, then to only take 5000 IU/day for the next 3 months. After that point then I am to take another test and if it is again in the 90 to 100 range he would advise from there if I should go to 10,000 IU's/day or stay at 5000 for a longer period of time.

I had already stopped taking vitiman D since Wray interepeded my test results for me and advised me to stop taking the vitiman D right away.

I have magnesium lotion that I started using 3 days ago. I am going to change to magnesium oil. I do not know how much vitiman K to take per day.

I still have the spotting daily and an occational day or days of heavier bleeding so I want to get that under control. Since I took too much of the vitiman D, I do not want to take what would be considered too much of the calcium D/G if there is too much you can take. I am taking 4000 mg/day of the C/D/G. Is it safe to increase the C/D/G to try and stop the daily spotting and what would be too much per day? Increasing The C/D/G is less costwise then increasing the Natpro. I am taking 700 mg/day of Natpro. I am assuming that I still have excess estrogen because I am still bleeding daily and am not under stress. I also still have a few other estrogen dominant symptoms. As a vegetarian who buys organic, I can't completely cut out all estrogen foods but I can avoid the ones that are highest like soy. So I need to find a balance of the right amount of Natpro combined with other supplements so that I can balance out what estrogen I am exposed to in my diet. I also don't use cosmetic products and I use the hormone free sunscreen.

Oct 24, 2012
more info
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I sent the last comment about my phone call before receiving your answer to the comment you made from my previous comment. I am adding another comment now before you can address my "Phone call for Dr Cannell" our messages are crossing, but I want to say few more things.

First of all, Wray, I want to tell you how much I appreciate your advice. I don't know how you are able to answer each and ever one of the questions people write in. You must never leave your computer. LOL.

I got scared when I got the phone call and that it was Dr Cannell himself I was speaking to. A person has a certain amount of fright when a doctor is concerned with your health. But I do realize that he really does not know about my health issues(and annoyances), all he knows about is what my vitamin D level is. I do not want to go back to the beginning and have my D levels drop too low. I think I will have a D test sooner than the 3 months.

I am now taking Magnesium and will continue and tell you how it is working but even now it has helped my sleeping and it has just been a few days. I am ordering some Natto pills that have vitamin K in it so that should cover it for me on the K. After talking to my friend who has the fibroid and reading more about the subject I think I might possibly have a fibroid outside my uterus. I was told you can't really now for sure if you have one outside the uterus and how many and what size unless you have an MRI. I am going to ask for one in January when I go back to the doctor.

Oct 25, 2012
Call from Dr Cannell
by: Wray

Hi Susie M That is most interesting that you got a call from Dr Cannell, he really is amazing. Please don't be too alarmed about your level, my sister in law did the same too. Except she took about 660,000iu's for a month! Bit of a mistake as she hadn't realised she was taking the neat vitamin D, which we have in stock. Her level went up to 350ng/ml, she felt wonderful and lost weight too. She stopped the D for a bit, but has now started it again. The only concern is your calcium level can get too high, but if you take the magnesium, and the vitamin K, you should be fine. Vitamin K is a neglected vitamin, I think everyone assumes we all eat enough green leafy veggies. But looking at the processed foods eaten by many, I doubt we do. Vitamin K1 (phylloquinone) is found in green leaves, some then gets converted into K2 (menaquinone) by gut bacteria and various tissues, which also make it de novo. But many people have gut dysbiosis, with a lack of good bacteria, often because of antibiotics, Crohn's disease, coeliac disease, etc. A deficiency can also occur in people with a compromised liver, cystic fibrosis, or any inflammatory gut disease. Vitamin K2 is found in organ meats, egg yolks, and dairy products. There is controversy about which is the best form, many settling on the K2. Doses vary hugely too, mainly due to lack of information from definitive studies. The RDA's are ridiculously low, about 90mcg/day for women. Whereas 45mg/day has been used in one successful study on osteoporosis, see here, here, here, here,
here, here and here. LEF is a good brand and seem to know what they are talking about. The recommended oral dosage of calcium-D-glucarate is generally in the range of 1500-3000 mg daily, see here. Continued below.

Oct 25, 2012
Call from Dr Cannell Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M CaDG contains 40% calcium. Which means you're getting about 1600mg/day calcium, which is on the high side. So it's a toss up, as the 4000mg/day is helping the spotting. Please continue with the taurine, I don't believe you're getting enough with a veggie diet, and it is low in dysfunctional uterine bleeding. Please try cutting out all oestrogenic foods as I suggested, I'm sure this could be part of the problem, if not the problem. It's not just soy that has high levels, all grains and legumes are high, nuts, seeds and seed oils are highest. Although oestrogen causes the lining to build up, it's the MMP's which cause it to break down. The NAC inhibits these, as does progesterone. Given time I would hope they will all help you. Take care Wray

Oct 25, 2012
more info
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Yes our comments are crossing, you're too quick for me! Bless you for the kind words too, you are right, I don't leave it! Sit here early morning to late at night, 7 days a week too, but I love it and that's what counts. I do agree, in fact I said as much in my last reply. You've struggled with the exceptionally heavy bleeding, and now it's all but stopped. The last thing you want it to go backwards. I don't think you need to wait as long as 3 months before the vitamin D drops, to start it again. But only a test can tell you this, so please have another much sooner than 3 months. It might be a good idea to have a scan done to see if you do have a fibroid. They certainly cause dysfunctional uterine bleeding. Let's hope by January that the vitamin D and progesterone has worked by then, and you don't need a scan. But please keep in touch, I'm so interested in all your experiments! Take care Wray

Nov 12, 2012
How things are going
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

On Oct 30th (6 days after I last commented) I decided to try increasing my Natpro to 900 mgs/day. I had tried all the supplements you suggested and at even higher doses then recommended and I was still spotting red blood. On the 11th day of using the 900 mgs of Natpro I no longer spotted red blood. It turned into a light brownish or tan colored tinge on the tampon. It is very thick/gooey in consistency but there is such a small amount. That has gone on for 8 days straight until today when a small amount of red blood arrived back again.

I believe this is due to my reducing the Natpro 3 days ago back to 700 mgs/day and cutting back on the dose of Calcium D-glucarate and NAC. It is getting so expensive to use so much of those three. I should have only reduced one thing at a time and I know better but I still did it. So today I went back to the higher doses and will see what happens.

If I can stop the red blood again, however small of an amount, then when I try to reduce anything I will do it one item at a time. I am just not sure what to try to reduce first and could use your guidance on that. If the red blood goes away what should I try to reduce first, second, and then third of those 3 items. I buy the higher priced supplements that have no additives and come in the higher single doses. Since I take 8 and 6 caps of the NAC and the C-D-G those two end up costing so much more then the other supplements and I run through those bottles so fast. I can't get them locally so I have to order on the Internet. I end up buying larger quantities (more out of pocket cost at one time)because I don't want to run out and be without them waiting for a shipment to arrive. Same with the Natpro. I live in fear of running out and it being out of stock or held up in transit and I have none for any length of time.

I want to try to reduce those three as soon as I can but not so soon as to bring back the red blood. Kinda of a catch 22 situation. I have already gone through 30 tubes of Natpro in 69 days. At my current dose I am now going through a tube every 2 days. I have 16 tubes left and at the current amount I am using that is about one months worth. But the main goal now over cost has got to be not to bleed red blood. Even better is to not have the brownish tan spotting as well. At some point though the cost will win as time goes on.


Nov 13, 2012
How things are going
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Thanks for the feedback. I'm so sorry this is continuing, I had so hoped it would have cleared by now. Although the C-D-G is effective at helping the liver detox, it's not specified for heavy bleeding. We've had so much correspondence, I can't remember if you said it helped you? I really feel you don't need this, as I'm sure by now your liver is fine. I know I asked you to try taurine, as that is low in dysfunctional bleeding, and I believe you said you were going to, and thought it hadn't helped? But did you give it long enough? I'm not sure how much you're paying for the NAC, taurine and C-D-G, or how much is in each capsule. But we do have an Anti-inflammatory complex which has all the potent antioxidants in it, plus the B vitamins. Maybe this might be a cheaper option? It doesn't contain the C-D-G. As we don't stock this, I phoned our wholesaler to find the price and it's very costly! Unless you feel the C-D-G really is helping you, I feel this should be the first to be reduced. And please don't reduce the progesterone too quickly. It should be reduced by no more than about 20mg each reduction, staying on that for a few days before reducing again. So from 900mg to 700mg should have taken a minimum of 20 days to reduce. Let me know your thoughts about lowering the C-D-G first. And if you are taking the taurine. Take care Wray

Nov 13, 2012
How things are going
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I knew it helped the liver but I am mainly taking the C-D-G because I thought it helped get rid of estrogen? I am taking 4000 mg/day thinking I was really going to try to flush out that estrogen. Should I just reduce the dose and to what, or should I just stop taking it altogether. Is this a suplament I should be taking for life?

Yes, I am still taking the taurine at 3000 mgs/day. You convinced me to take it for life. Although, I will probaly reduce the higher dose I am taking right now. I am also taking the LEF brand of Certified European Milk Thistle 1500 mg/day. I will take this for life as well. Not sure if I should eventually reduce the dose or stay.

I forgot to tell you that I am taking a single cap of LEF super K that is 2100 mcg/day. I am also soaking my feet every night in Acient Minerals bath flakes. I use a 1/2 cup (about 7000 grams) in a small foot bath tub and soak for about 30 minuets. I wanted to get magnesium and the vitiman K in my system to help the calcium I'm my body from all the vitiman D I took and the C-D-G to keep it from going to my soft tissue and to go to my bones. I read that magnesium was best absorbed tramsdermaly just like the progesterone. Also no chance of diareah with this method either.

But I don't know how long I should continue with the magnesium and the super K that i am currently taking. Should I stop once I start taking Dr Canelle's vitiman D suplament again when my D levels get back to a good normal range of 90-100? I know that Dr Canelle's vit D suplament has magnesium and K in it but not as much as the doses of mag and K I am taking now. You had said that the recommended dose of vitiman K by most is really low in comparison to,what we really need so I don't know what amount I should take regularly for life. And same for the magnesium, not sure as to what I should be taking regularly for life.

I want to tell you that as of this morning, just one day later, the red blood is again gone. So that got fixed really quick in one day of going back to the higher doses of the Natpro and the NAC and the C-D-G. It was most likely the higher Natpro that did it.

So you say to start with reducing or stoping the C-D-G. Then reduce the Natpro or the NAC? If I continue with no red blood spotting or bleeding for the next few months, is there a point where I should stop the NAC altogether or do I remain on that for life?

I know I will stick with the Natpro for life. At some point I will cross over to menopause and that will stop the bleeding for good. But I will need still the Natpro for other reasons but at a much smaller dose and the cost will be so little. A tube will last closer to a month than how fast I am going through it now. LOL.

I plan on keeping my vitiman D level at the 90 to 100 range so I will take Dr Canelle's D formula for life too. Your anti inflammatory formula sounds good is there a link you can direct me to for that? What is in it?



Nov 13, 2012
question I forgot
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I was wondering why you are only suppose to reduce the Natpro by only 20 mgs at a time? it is more for curiosity that I am asking. What can happen when you reduce in larger amounts besides symptoms coming back? I understand why you would stick with a reduction for 2 or 3 days in order to see if you stay stable/symptoms-staying-away. But I would like to understand why decreasing in a certain amount and why so low of an amount?

Thanks

Nov 14, 2012
How things are going
by: Wray

Hi Susie M It's the liver that does the flushing of hormones and toxins. I can't remember if I gave you the details about the C-D-G? Oestrogen is metabolised in the liver by glucuronic acid, the process is known as glucuronidation. Glucuronidation is one of the major detoxification pathways of the liver. It removes carcinogens, toxins, tumour promoters, the sex hormones ie, the androgens and oestrogens, mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids, aromatic and heterocyclic amines, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, various nitrosamines, drugs, fungi etc. It's then excreted in the bile, but an enzyme in the intestine called beta-glucuronidase reverses the glucuronidation process. It breaks the glucoronide bond between a toxin and glucuronic acid, and releases carcinogens, toxins and excess steroid hormones back into circulation. There's evidence beta-glucuronidase activity is increased in breast and prostate cancer. Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, see here, here, here and here. This enzyme is also produced by undesirable gut bacteria, supplementing with probiotics suppresses the bacteria, and subsequently the beta-glucuronidase. Silymarin from milk thistle also inhibits beta-glucuronidase, plus it helps the liver detox. So Calcium D-glucarate inhibits beta-glucuronidase, it doesn't actually help the liver detox as milk thistle does. I don't think it's a supplement that needs to be taken daily for life. But maybe once in a while. But as you've been taking large amounts, I feel it would be better to reduce it slowly, not as slowly as progesterone, as I don't think the symptoms will be noticeable. So to answer your question about reducing the progesterone slowly. If too fast some, if not all the symptoms, can come back, undoing all the hard work. I find this doesn't occur with me now, but I have been using it for over 15 years. Some women are sensitive to even a small drop, so it's more a precaution than anything else. You certainly do investigate things, and experiment! I love the way you do this. Mg is absorbed transdermally, see here. I use two handfuls of Mg sulphate (Epsom Salts) in my bath every night. I buy a 50lb bag from a farmers co-op. I've done this for years now, and will probably continue for ever too. It's a good idea taking that amount of vitamin K to make sure the calcium doesn't line the arteries or calcify tissue. Continued below

Nov 14, 2012
How things are going Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M So when your vitamin D is back to normal, stick with Dr Cannel's supps. His site is down at the moment so I can't see how much K he uses, but it will be an optimal amount. So pleased the red blood has gone, very quick. And I'm sure it was the progesterone too, although the NAC would have played a role too. Having read so many studies on the benefits of the antioxidant aminos, I think I will always be taking them. They are the ones I use in my complexes. Many are antioxidants in their own right, but some also combine to make further antioxidants. I've even found a paper entitled 'Oxidative stress and ageing: is ageing a cysteine deficiency syndrome?', see here, here and here. So this is one I won't stop taking. This is the page for the Anti-inflammatory formula. It gives a full explanation of what each ingredient does, plus the quantities in it. Take care Wray

Nov 15, 2012
energy and anti-inflammatory
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I would like to take both the anti-inflammatory and the energy boost formulas. I think that they both will help me with some of my issues.

I see that each formula has zinc and vitamin D in them. If I take both of them I will be getting a total of 10,000 IU's of the vitamin D. So then I would NOT want to additionally take Dr. Cannell's vitamin D, is that correct? I would need to continue to take the some separate vitamin K and magnesium and also some boron and calcium for that 10,000 IU's of vitamin D so as not to go to my soft tissue, is that correct? I did not see that either of the formulas had those additional supplements in them. Or...would you recommend that I take both the energy and anti-inflammatory formulas plus one of Dr Cannell's vit D caps so I get some of the boron and other things for the vit D, since his formula has those additional things? Then I would be taking a total of 15,000 IU's of vit D.

Is the calcium in foods enough to make the vitamin D metabolize or do I actually need to take a calcium supplement? I know I am currently getting supplemental calcium in the C-D-G I am taking but you had said I don't need to take that for life so at some point I will stop taking it. I have read that you really should not take extra calcium beyond what you get in food. But not sure if that is true.

I am only double checking because I think I know what your answer might be but..it is OK to take 45 mgs of zinc that I would be getting by taking both formulas? I read that you can take too much zinc. Again, I never know if I should believe what I read. I do however believe what you say because you have proven yourself over and over to be accurate and I know you do so much research and understand much more than I ever could of the medical and scientific explanations.


Nov 15, 2012
energy and anti-inflammatory continued
by: Susie M

continued....

Now that I seem to finally have gotten to the point of stopping any red blood from coming daily and have not had a hot flash in a long time. I would like to work on my high blood pressure, fuzzy/foggy thinking and my not being able to lose weight especially in the stomach area. I don't have rolls, I have a somewhat hard distended beer belly or pregnant type stomach. I am sure I see it as more exaggerated than it really is, we are so hard on ourselves. I have always been able to lose weight and especially have my stomach get smaller until the past 9 or 10 months.

I also thought I was having some cramping but i think it is really more like a constant pressure then on and off cramping that can be painful. Those two reasons are why I thought I might have a fibroid or two outside the uterus. I have read about women having those two problems of pressure and a distended stomach when they have fibroid and obviously along with bleeding problems. I was told(Female Dr)I did not have fibroids and that my symptoms and bleeding were because I was in peri-menopause, had wacky hormones and it would clear up as soon at I crossed over into menopause. That is why I searched for and answer to fixing messed up hormones and found your site. Best thing that ever happened to me.

I also read that if fibroids are outside the uterus it can only be confirmed with an MRI. I was going to ask for one when I go back to the doctor. At the first of the new year we will start a new deductible on our insurance so I don't want to go before then. In the mean time I am taking Nattobiotic (raw nattokinase) by Arthur Andrew Medical to try to shrink a fibroid if I have one. Plus as you know I took all the mega-doses of vitamin D.

Nov 16, 2012
energy and anti-inflammatory
by: Wray

Hi Susie M You do say the kindest things! I do try to stay as informed as I can, obviously very biased towards natural things and progesterone of course. I would rather you only took one formula at a time. The aminos and vitamins don't concern me. The highest dose I've found for chrome is 1000mcg, which is what you would be taking. The RDA for zinc is 15mg, although I do recommend up to 100mg if severely deficient or have acne. But only for about 3 months. The 45mg would be fine, although on the high side. The other ingredients don't concern me either, except for the milk thistle. Each formula we have has the highest level I've found. I use it as our livers are so overworked, and there is so much research on it's benefits. The EB is designed to help stabilise blood glucose and reverse insulin resistance. The Anti-inflammatory to help inflammation. You'll notice the antioxidant aminos are very much higher in that, than the EB. I feel that your need at the moment is to sort out the inflammation in your uterus. If it does that I'd be delighted, notwithstanding the fact that the NAC is much lower than you are currently taking. You shouldn't need extra vitamin D as each formula has 5000iu's, but only testing can tell. If you find it's dropped you could always supplement to bring it up. I haven't added vitamin K to any formula, although I feel I should, but need to do more work on that. It's probably more essential now than ever, as very few eat green leafy veggies anymore! None of the formulas have Mg or Ca in them, as so many take them, or if menopausal are always put on Ca, in the mistaken belief they need it. Ca alone, with no magnesium or vitamin K will lead to heart disease, hypercalcemia, incontinence and depression, see here, here, here, here and here. One of the roles of vitamin D is to draw Ca from the gut and into the blood stream. Generally our foods have more than enough, as most of us eat or drink dairy. But we get little magnesium, the most important co-factor for D, as our soils contain little, and diary is low in magnesium. I don't take boron, it is a trace mineral and I do try to eat as much organic as possible, so reason I'm probably getting enough. About the high BP. A lack of vitamin D causes the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system to kick in. Angiostensin (ANG) causes blood vessels to constrict, so BP goes up. Continued below

Nov 16, 2012
energy and anti-inflammatory Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Angiotensin also stimulates the release of aldosterone. Aldosterone production causes sodium to be drawn into the tissues, which causes water to be retained, so BP goes up. A sharp drop in blood glucose causes adrenaline to increase. Stress also causes adrenaline to increase. Excess adrenaline causes the heart to beat too fast so BP goes up. A lack of nitric oxide causes blood vessels to constrict, so BP goes up. The precursor to NO is arginine, this amino acid is also a powerful antioxidant. NO is potent vasodilator. Progesterone increases the production of NO, it also inhibits aldosterone. Progesterone itself is also a potent vasodilator. Lack of salt causes the aldosterone system to kick in to prevent it's loss. But this causes water to be retained, so BP goes up. Interestingly, in pregnancy blood volume goes up by about 40%, cardiac output increases, but BP does not go up. The reason being progesterone, more specifically it's most potent metabolite allopregnanolone, inhibits the ANG system, and causes NO to increase, see here. The precursor to ANG is angiotensinogen, which is produced by the liver. Angiotensinogen is increased by corticosteroids, oestrogen, thyroid hormone, and angiotensin itself. Stress causes cortisol to increase, cortisol is a corticosteroid. So which is it?! It could be just a matter of time for the vitamin D and progesterone to work, or maybe you're not eating enough salt? This is an excellent article to read here. I'm surprised the foggy thinking hasn't gone with the amount of progesterone you're using, but again it could just more time is needed. Has anyone checked for Candida, as that also causes foggy thinking. In fact any gut dysbiosis causes it. Is the distended belly actually fat, or could it be a problem in your gut? Testosterone causes visceral fat to form, which is the reason middle aged women get a middle aged spread. See here and here. The menopausal ovary is an androgen producing organ too, see here. Continued below

Nov 16, 2012
energy and anti-inflammatory Part 3
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Testosterone also causes insulin resistance, see here and here. But if bound to SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) testosterone becomes inactive, progesterone raises levels of SHBG, see here, so preventing the rise of free testosterone. SHBG drops if sugars are eaten, even those found in all grains, legumes, dairy and sweet starchy fruits and vegetables. Fructose, sucrose and glucose, reduce SHBG by 80, 50 and 40% respectively, see here. Thereby allowing testosterone to rise. It's best to avoid all the foods and sugars mentioned. Wine and beers contain carbs, so it's best to avoid those too. Sugars and large meals also drop progesterone levels, which means SHBG also drops, another vicious cycle. I feel the doctor is right about the fibroids, but it wouldn't hurt to have a scan. At least it would confirm it one way or the other. Take care Wray

Aug 09, 2013
update after 9 months on Natpro
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I wanted to let you know how things have been going. The last time we emailed about my constant bleeding was 9 months ago.

I finally stopped bleeding altogether maybe around December of last year. I started to reduce from my high Natpro dose of about 900 ml (5 1/2 tsp) very, very slowly this time right around the month of April this year down to 2 and a half tsp per day (somewhere about 400 to 430 ml)and at his level I no longer bleed at all. If I drop below 2 1/2 tsp per day then I will start to bleed somewhat.

I also stopped taking all the supplements except for the vitamin D once my D levels went back to normal. I wanted to see if the Natpro alone would still control the bleeding and it did and has now for about 6 or 7 months now.

I read that using progesterone cream on your skin in the same place over and over can cause something that was called "saturation" and the progesterone cream can then become ineffective. Is this correct? I used such a high dose for so long that I needed to put the cream on several times a day. I did not want to have to go and take off any clothes to do so, especially if I was gone from home when applying a dose. So when not wearing shorts I could always easily lift up my pant legs or dress slightly to apply the dose to my calves even in public or in a parked car. I could also always apply it to my forearms too (I never go sleeveless) even in long sleeves by rolling up my sleeves, again, in front of people or sitting in a car without having to take any clothes off or have to show my stomach.

I continue to apply Natpro to theses same 2 areas of my calves and forearms even at the lower dose for the same reasons. So after many months of no bleeding except when I was experimenting with lowering the dose...I started bleeding today. It is very possible I just forgot to apply my last dose before bed. I think that I DID apply my last dose but I cannot be absolutely sure because I still struggle with a fuzzy brain issue. I wanted to make sure it was not this "saturation", if it exists.

That brings me to another issue. I stopped all my hot flashes at the 900mg dose but not the fuzzy thinking. Now at the lower dose the hoy flashes are back. I would increase the dose for the flashes to go away. Hate them! But because of the inconvenience of having to constantly put on cream throughout the day and the cost, I am putting up with the hot flashes. Is there any supplement you can recommend for the hot flashes?


Aug 09, 2013
continued part 2 update on bleeding
by: Susie M

I will also tell you that I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes. I am at Just the starting mark for a diagnosis at 130 mg/dl fasting blood glucose level. Interestingly I was only tested once and it is recommended to be tested twice. But that's another story. I have managed to lose 15 lbs but hit a long lasting plateau despite exercise and diet. I even went from being a healthy eating vegan (lost the 15 pounds as a vegan) to trying to eat super low carb Paleo/Atkins-like eating with no results. I mention "healthy" vegan because there are what I call "cookie vegans" who eat lots of sweets, snack foods and processed foods, but yet don't eat meat or dairy so they are technically vegan. I am adding more exercise by signing up for a pilates class that starts next month. my current exercise is walking 5 miles every day. Perhaps the addition of the pilates will help with moving the weight along with trying yet another different diet. I have tried low fat eating and that did not move the weight either.

I am soooooo very greatful for this web site and all your help answering my questions along with your recommendations and for Natpro. The saved my quality of life and helped me when medical doctors did not. Not that I am anti-medical. but the medical community tends to try medicine before recommending diet or lifestyle changes and certainly any natural supplements. Your are very fortunate if you can find the few doctors out there that don't think that way. And...how do you find those great ones? I am trying to reverse my diabetes with weight loss over medication (but that is just my personal decision and not advocating for anyone else to do so) and I am so glad I used natural progesterone (Natpro, the very best) over a synthetic prescription. Boy, that sounded like a commercial for Natpro but happens to be the true. LOL

I also wanted to let you know I am now going to add back some supplements for my overall health. So, back to my above questions....IF I did in fact apply my last dose before bed last night and IF there is no such thing as "saturation" with my described "same area of the body" application then what do you think caused the sudden bleeding and what do you recommend? Buy the way, I am not under any physical or emotional stress.

Aug 11, 2013
update after 9 months on Natpro
by: Wray

Hi Suzie M I'm so delighted you've given me this update, I often think of you and wonder how you're doing. If I had the time I would ask everyone for updates, but I can't. Bless you for the kind words too! Delighted the vitamin D came back to normal again, I'm sure the high level you had did you the world of good, but too high, for too long is not a good thing. Simply because calcium can go too high. I'm also delighted the bleeding has finally stopped, and that you've been able to reduce the progesterone. There are so many articles on progesterone saturating the fatty tissues, I'm not convinced by this. If it was the case, we'd all need to use increasing amounts to get any benefit, but we don't. You have in fact reduced by over half. Progesterone is lipophilic, or fat loving, so does get absorbed by the fat cells. But these have capillaries that feed them, in those capillaries are red blood cells. These take up the progesterone and transport it around the body, see here and here. This paper is interesting as it says "The largest concentration of radioactive material was found in the proliferative phase patients (in fat tissue); in the secretory phase it was concentrated in the skin, uterus, and myomas." The proliferative phase is of course when oestrogen is active, commonly known as the follicular phase. The secretory phase, or luteal phase, is when progesterone is active. So it appears progesterone is stored in fat tissue, but becomes mobilised when needed, see here. I do exactly what you do, rub it on areas I can get to without stripping! I prefer to use it more than twice a day. I still use the same amount I've always done, about 170mg/day. Some days if stressed I'll add more. I'm so sorry the Hot Flushes have come back, I couldn't agree more, I hated them too. I've found in some women they seem to be very difficult to eliminate. One thing which helps is magnesium. I know you are taking it, or were, but is it enough? If you're still taking Dr Cannell's vitamin D complex you'll be getting about 250mg/day. You were also using the Mg oil, are you still? Incidentally a much cheaper way is to buy Epson Salts or Mg chloride, take about 5ml of the crystals and add it to about 1/2 to 1 cup of warm water. They both dissolve very readily, and then rub the solution over your skin. This is all the Mg 'oil' is, nothing more, Mg does not dissolve in an oil. Others have found omega 3 fish oil helps, and one found resveratrol helped, see here. Continued below

Aug 11, 2013
update after 9 months on Natpro Part 2
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I'm so sorry to hear you've been diagnosed with diabetes, but it is possible to reverse it. Both the Paleo/Atkins are good, as they are low carb, but don't have enough fat in them, particularly the Paleo. Please try the Ketogenic Diet. And get hold of "Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It" by Gary Taubes, see here. It's an excellent book which explains the role carbohydrates and insulin play in our body. And how damaging both are when in excess. He does go into the role exercise plays, and it's not as much as we like to believe. The Keto Diet reduces glucose levels to the barest minimum, and the body uses ketones for energy. It's a very high fat, moderate to low protein and very low carb diet. Only the good fats should be used, i.e. MCT oil, coconut oil, butter, olive oil or macadamia oil. The first three are saturated fats, the other two mono-unsaturated fats. The best is the MCT oil, an extract from coconut oil. The body converts the fatty acid into ketones, in fact the brain does better on these than glucose. Excess glucose can cause a fuzzy brain. MCT oil forms ketones more efficiently than the other oils. The diet varies from a 4:1 ratio of fat to protein/carb down to a 1:1 ratio which is the easier to follow. It's also essential to eat enough protein. This is based on 0.9g to 1.0g of protein per kg per day of lean muscle mass. Contrary to what is generally believed a lack of protein leads to bone loss. Having tried the vegan approach, and not the 'cookie' vegan (how right you are!), you might consider the Raw For 30 Days approach. It does reverse diabetes. A raw food diet is good, but difficult for most to adhere to, plus I'm a great believer in animal protein, be it fish, eggs or meat, hence my recommendation of the Keto Diet. It is puzzling why you should suddenly bleed, we do have a page on Menstruation you could look through, it might shed some light. It could be you produced more oestrogen that month, and the amount of progesterone wasn't sufficient to counter it. Oestrogen stimulates the MMPs, enzymes which break down the lining. These could have increased and caused the bleeding. Your vitamin D could have dropped too, the body is so hugely complicated! I'm so grateful you've given me this update, so please continue to let me know how you get on. Take care Wray

Aug 11, 2013
False alarm stopped bleeding then next day
by: Susie M

Thanks for the diet recommendations. I will read about them for sure and most likely try them as well. I did stop the magnesium but started again yesterday. As I said, I wanted to see if the progesterone was working alone especially when trying to reduce. But I realize that there are other reasons besides controlling bleeding to take certain supplements.

Funny you should mention MCT since I just research it very recently looking for things that would promote weight loss. I bought some very good quality MCT oil and some CLA and have been using them now for a few days. And I read that the MCT also helped with the clear thinking as you mentioned. Double bonus. I also use coconut oil almost exclusivly for cooking. I do agree that we need a good amount of good fat like those in whole foods like avocado. I no longer believe low fat the the way to eat but I do think eating no bad fats is a must if not then at least limiting to bare minimum.


I do believe the transdermal application for magnesium is the best way to get it into your system and without having any of the possible side effects of diarrhea. Not fun. I know that when taking a liquid or capsule form of magnesium that it takes a few month for you to see results. Is this because it need to build up in your system? I'm I correct that getting magnesium transdermaly is a faster way? Is it immediate with the magnesium crystals. I have magnesium flakes and dissolve them in warm water and soak my feet in them for 30 minuets. Once I run out I will switch to the Epsom salts. I want to take about 900 mgs per day because that was the dose recommended for optimal weight loss. I do know that whatever your body dose not use it will get rid of so no worry of getting too much just not enough. But I can't find any information anywhere on how many cups of Epsom salt desolved in water would equal that 900 mg amount. I also can find any information that tells you how much magnesium you absorb in a 30 minute soak. Do you know if you adsorb all of the amount of magnesium you portion out for a tramsdermal application?

I also started taking several antioxidants in different forms so I wonder if that will (in time) be equal to using reservotol if it is the antioxidants that help with the hot flashes. Does not matter what source of the antioxidants?

Lastly, I wanted to let you know that I stopped belled on the next day so perhaps I did miss my bedtime dose after all.


Aug 12, 2013
False alarm stopped bleeding then next day
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Well I'm pleased it was a false alarm, so it could be you missed the dose. I would be interested if the magnesium does help the hot flushes. I've found the nutrients all work synergistically, like for instance the progesterone and vitamin D. Pity there's not more research on this aspect, I'm sure all our ills are due to this ignorance. An example is calcium, women are told to take this for their bones, but no mention of magnesium or vitamin D. Excess calcium leads to it being deposited in soft tissue including the blood vessels, it causes an increased risk of heart attacks, and depression. I do wonder if the increased risk of heart disease in menopausal women is due in part to this, as all obgyns tell their patients to take it! I do agree about the diarrhoea, not fun. I have only found one paper on magnesium absorption through the skin, but it does give a wealth of info....."However, all individuals had significant rises in plasma magnesium and sulfate at a level of 1% Epsom salts. This equates to 1g MgS04/100ml water; 600g Epsom salts/60 litres, the standard size UK bath taken in this project (~15 US gallons). However, most volunteers had significantly raised Mg/S04 levels on baths with 400g MgS04 added.", see here. As you want to use 900mg/day, I suggest you mix 1g with 100ml water, which will give you 1000mg, not far off. 1g is impossible to measure unless you have an accurate scale. There are 28.3495g in 1oz, so you could use an oz scale. Put 1oz of Epson Salts in 28 oz of water, this will be near enough. Let me know how you get on! Using Epson Salts as opposed to the other forms of magnesium is of double benefit as you will be getting the sulphur too. This is the most healing of all minerals, and it's one you cannot buy as a supplement, which I find so odd. This is a most excellent paper on magnesium, see here, and here's another. This is fascinating article on sulphur, see here. If you are taking several antioxidants this should help. Oestrogen causes free radicals to be produced, anything to get these down will be of benefit, see here. Take care Wray 

Sep 10, 2014
Update after another year on natpro
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

It's been a year since I told how I was doing on Natpro.
I am now on a dose of 2 tsps per day. One in the morning and one before bed. I take my evening dose with 10,000 IU's of a vitamin D supplement from purity products called Dr Cannell's advanced D women's formula. I seem to go in spurts of soaking my feet in magnesium flakes. I should do it regularly but sometimes there are periods in my life where I forget to do the nightly soaks. I need to be more committed to that. I know how good magnesium is for me.

I don't bleed at all unless I'm going through a stressful situation and then only a little spotting for a day or two. I'm usually not someone who gets stressed often. I still have the occasional hot flushes. And my foggy thinking seems to be getting worse especially trying to remember things. I also lost almost all my eyebrows. So I think that I may have a thyroid issue however all my tests came out in the normal range despite having several thyroid symptoms. I'm going to see an Endocrinologist next month who I hope treats symptoms over test results. From what I have read it is common to have thyroid symptoms but have normal tests results. Apparently The testing results can be wrong.

I need to start taking a few other supplements you recommended for the rest of my life, Milk thistle and taurine. I'm not sure if I should be still taking NAC. I can't remember if I told you I am now type 2 diabetic and also have high blood pressure. I was reading that both those seem to go hand in hand with thyroid issues. My mother in law reversed her diabetes in about days by eating mostly from her garden last summer. So I plan on doing that to reverse mine. I want to try and use natural methods to control my high blood pressure rather than meds. I was on meds and they did not control my BP and I hated the side effects so I got off them.

I can't be with out Natpro not even for one day. I can't go through the time it took me to stop bleeding by being without it and having to start all over again. I asking you Wray if there is anything you can do about the really long time that Natpro has been out of stock. Several months now. Since I go through a tube every six days I'm in trouble because I only have 3 tubes left. I have checked and tried to order more Natpro every everyday for months now. I'm on the email list once it comes back in stock but Joy told me to keep trying everyday. When I can order some i want to order a years worth because it has often been out of stock for months. I'm scared to be without it. As you had said to me I your comments.....I was your heaviest/ longest bleeder and with your help of suggested supplements and Natpro dosage suggestions along with time I was able to get it under control and keep it under control. Thank you soooooo much. You changed the quality of my life.

In the mean time, can you recommend a brand of progesterone cream I can buy until Natpro is back in stock? I have no idea what to buy and how mich of another brand I would need to take to equal the same 2 tsps I am taking of Natpro.

Last time I was sent the email from Joy that Natpro was back in stock it was 4 months ago and by the time I tried to order only 12 tubes were left so I bought them all. I was hoping to buy 6 months to a years worth then but took what I could get. But now I'm almost out and that was what I was afraid of. Not having enough. :(


Sep 12, 2014
Update continued
by: Susie M

I did not proof read my last comment before sending......
I meant to type that my mother-in-law, who had type 2 diabetes for several years, reversed her diabetes in about 60 days eating mostly fruits and veggies along with very little to no processed food. My previous comment was mistakenly written as though she had reversed her diabetes in just a couple of days and I wanted to clarify.

Sep 12, 2014
Update after another year on natpro
by: Wray

Hi Susie M It's good to hear from you again, can't believe it's a year! Bless you for the kind words. I'm glad you're still benefitting from the progesterone, but it does seem as though your thyroid needs help. Although it could be your adrenals are behind the symptoms, these are so often stressed and are never looked at by doctors. I'm not sure if I gave you these websites before, but it won't harm to give them again, see Stop the Thyroid Madness, Dr Wilson Adrenal Fatigue and Dr Lam Adrenal Fatigue. Both vitamin D and progesterone lower blood pressure, so it has to be something else causing it, but what. Are you eating enough salt? The adrenals need this too. Are you eating enough fats? And too many grains and legumes, plus sweet starchy fruits and root veggies? All these foods convert to glucose in the body and this can affect blood pressure. It could be you are, as you say you are now diabetic. Consider following the Ketogenic Diet. This will reverse the diabetes as it reduces glucose to the barest minimum. You should find it helps your foggy brain too, this needs fats to function normally. In fact some doctors are calling Alzheimer's Type 3 diabetes. I think your distress about the stock outs matches mine. I am so conscious of how it's affecting everyone. It was a cash flow problem which has been sorted out now and we made a double batch last week. We will be making another double batch next week, that's 10,000 tubes. Some cream did get into the fulfilment house, but was sold out within 53 minutes! The stock out notice was removed and before it was possible to tell anyone, it had all gone. More will be coming in, in fact could be in right now, but to avoid another instant stock out, I think that department is waiting until there is sufficient in stock to handle all the orders. Joy tells me she has about 600 people wanting to know when it's in stock. Take care Wray

Sep 12, 2014
Natpro Stock
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,
Thanks for the info on my last comments.

I'm positive that those 600 plus of us who need and come to relay on Natpro would gladly pre-pay for orders to be able to get Natpro so we don't run out and suffer return of symptoms.
This would alleviate any cash flo problem and be a win-win situation. It would be great if a prepay for orders option could be added to the order page for those that need Natpro for a guarantee that they could get some tubes before running out.

Sep 13, 2014
Natpro Stock
by: Wray

Hi Susie M We had thought of having a pre-paid option. But even as it is now without one, we still get abusive emails about lack of stock. Imagine if we took people's money and then didn't supply the cream due to some hold up! Someone has suggested we give away the business to someone who can run it, see 'An idea' here. I wonder how we're meant to live? Take care Wray

Sep 14, 2014
Salt protocol
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

Can you tell me how much sea salt I should take per day? I want to lower my very high blood pressure (210/125 at the doctors office) and help hypothyroid issues.

I read Ray Peat's link you gave to another commenter. It makes sense to me but I don't know or could not find how much sea salt to use per day. You had mentioned the salt protocol in your many comments to me but I can't seem to find that now.

Can you give me any advice for supplements that will help high blood pressure and hypothyroid aside from the 2 tsps of Natpro and the 10,000 IU's of vitamin D I am taking?

Sep 14, 2014
Salt protocol
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

Can you tell me how much sea salt I should take per day? I want to lower my very high blood pressure (210/125 at the doctors office) and help hypothyroid issues.

I read Ray Peat's link you gave to another commenter. It makes sense to me but I don't know or could not find how much sea salt to use per day. You had mentioned the salt protocol in your many comments to me but I can't seem to find that now.

Can you give me any advice for supplements that will help high blood pressure and hypothyroid aside from the 2 tsps of Natpro and the 10,000 IU's of vitamin D I am taking?

Sep 14, 2014
Salt protocol
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I generally say try 1/2tsp to begin with, in some warm water. The amount of water is immaterial, just what tastes good to you. I suggest taking it at night too, it can help with sleep problems if you have any. This is one of Ray Peat's pages on hypertension, and another here. I'm not sure if you've seen them. Has anyone checked your adrenal function? This is very important to a normal functioning thyroid, see Dr Wilson Adrenal Fatigue and Dr LAM Adrenal Fatigue. Iodine, tyrosine and selenium are essential to thyroid function, have these been checked? This is an excellent site on the thyroid, see Stop the Thyroid Madness. It's best you look through these sites as my knowledge on the adrenals and thyroid is minimal. Take care Wray

Sep 16, 2014
Salt protocol cont.
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

Sorry about the repeat if the same question. I must have hit the send link twice by mistake.

You had said to "start" with a 1/4 tsp of sea salt. I I know you said your knowledge of adrenal fatigue and thyroid was limited. But can you tell me the most or optimal amount of salt would be required. I don't want to take too much if there is such a thing but I want to know what to shoot for after starting with 1:4 tsp.

I read the info you suggested. Even though I had a hard time with all the terminology I did somewhat understand what was being said and it made sence to me.

I took the adrenal fatigue test and either I don't have it or I'm in the low catagory as I fall right between the two. But the article said even a little AF can cause some symptoms. Interesting that AF has been treated with thyroid meds.

What do you think about the first line of treatment for AF as prescribing Pregnenolone? Is that a dangerous thing to take? The article said that it can increase testosterone and other hormones like estrogen and there was no way of knowing what other hormones it effects in each person. It also said it can cause hair loss. So that makes me not want to take it as well since I'm having issues with hair loss.

I'm asking because I'm going to an endocrinologist in October. If he diagnoses me as having AF rather than Thyroid issue and wants me to take Pregneolone.

I had full thyroid blood tests done last week and the results to all the different tests came out as in the normal range. I still have a goiter ultrasound test yet to take. I had one before and it came out normal. The hair loss ( especially the eyebrows) are a concern for me. The diabetes reversal will come so I'm not too worried about that. But I'm concerned about the extremely HBP. I can't remember if I told you that I was on several HBP meds including a diuretic and the meds were not controlling the HBP. Plus one if the side effects was hair loss. I did not feel good on those HBP meds either. So I got off them many, many months ago. It might have even been a year now. I can't remember. One if my other grave concerns and maddening symptoms is remembering things and foggy thinking.

I would much rather help myself if at all possible with natural measures over taking medications as there are always dude effects that just seem to trade one bad symptom for another.

May I ask you if you have a thyroid issue as I have read mention of it in your comments to others? If so, may I ask what you take as far as any meds and supplements to keep it under control?

Thanks for all your help I don't know what I would have done without your advice. You are the best!! A am curious if you hold a medical degree as you know and understand so much more than the average person about how the body works and your explanations are so scientific.

Oh, one other thing. I started bleeding some (red) yesterday. It could be stress as some hectic things are going on at the moment and the stress about my hair loss and HBP.
But I have had these kinds of things/issues in my life before and it has not caused bleeding on my current Natpro dose. I was wondering if you think the bleeding came from me taking a baby aspirin every day for the last 3 days? The family dr I went to in order to get my thyroid tests ordered ( and where I had that very high BP reading) asked me if I would take a baby aspirin (81 mg's) every day since I will not go back on HBP meds? Now I'm thinking that since aspirin is a blood thinner could it cause me to suddenly bleed a little? Enough that I need to wear a tampon. I stopped the baby aspirin yesterday.

Sep 17, 2014
Salt protocol cont.
by: Wray

Hi Susie M I actually said to start with 1/2 tsp salt. I have no idea if this will be enough, but try it and see. You might have to reduce to 1/4tsp at a later stage, I simply don't know. There's nothing dangerous about using pregnenolone, it's the precursor to progesterone. As for making testosterone and oestrogen, yes eventually it does. See this chart by Genova Diagnostics. But as you're using a large amour of progesterone you need have no concerns. I doubt the endo will ask you to use pregnenolone, they are not really interested in natural products. I don't really have a thyroid issue, beyond one kinesiologist saying I needed iodine. So I've been rubbing Lugol's solution on to my body, varying the area as iodine can burn the skin if applied too frequently. The iodine still fades overnight so evidently I still need to continue with this. And no I don't have a medical degree, just an insatiable curiosity! I also love experimenting, in fact when I first started progesterone I had no one to turn to, and no book. Beyond "Passage to Power" by Leslie Kenton and Dr Lee's first book, "Natural Progesterone: The Multiple Roles of a Remarkable Hormone". So I experimented on myself. I'm not sure about the aspirin, it does thin blood, so could be responsible. But it could be the stress too. Take care Wray

Nov 01, 2014
Suddenly started heavy bleeding after one year of no bleeding
by: susie m

Hi Wray,
After about a year of not bleeding at all with Natpro I started to bleed heavy today like I did when I first found this web site and started emailing you. It took 900 mgs of Natpro to stop the bleeding along with recommended suplements. I finally was able to reduce to 2 tsp of Natpro per day and not bleed at all. It has been about 8 or 9 months since I've been on only 2 tsp of Natpro. Then about 2 months ago I started spotting a little brown blood.

I am now on armour desiccated thyroid medicine as of two weeks ago. Just a starting dose of 60 mgs. I got the "stop the madness" books and from what I have researched in the books and on line, in order for symptoms to go away in a hypothyroid person they need to be taking at least 180 mgs. It takes weeks to build up to that many mgs. Since thyroid is a hormone can that effect the progesterone I'm taking and causing the bleeding?

If the low thyroid medicine is causing this sudden bleeding then how much should I increase the Natpro to stop the bleeding until I work up to the optimal dose of thyroid medicine?

I believe every 2 or 3 weeks I can ask for a 30 mg increase of Armour and so it would take about 2 months to get to 180 mgs of thyroid meds to start to see symptoms go away. My thyroid symptoms of extreme high blood pressure, hair loss, bad memory and fogy thinking along with being tired and sleepy. My symptoms seem to have gotten worse after the first week on the thyroid meds. Now there is the sudden heavy bleeding.

I read that when you are on too low of a dose of thyroid meds you can experience more pronounced side effects just like with Natpro. So could this low thyroid medicine be the cause of the sudden heavy bleeding after all this time of not bleeding since thyroid is a hormone?

Or do you think this sudden heavy bleeding has somthing to do with not bleeding at all for a year and the lining build-up just needed to come out? I am now 55 and was 53 when I started emailing you and found this wonderful web site. This heavy bleeding I'm having has those big blood clots.

Should I add any suplements as well for this sudden bleeding?
I ordered your energy boost and have been taking it for a about 3 weeks now. I take 10,000 IU's of D and vit K and co Q 10 (and I take 500 mgs forskolii for visceral fat) I take 1500 mgs of glucosamine for arthritis. I'm am now on 500 mgs of metformin for my type 2 diabetes that I started when I got the Armour thyroid medication. The brown blood spotting started about 2 months ago and I've only been on the diabetes and thyroid meds for about 2 weeks.

Nothing has changed in my life with eating or exercise etc that I can think of that would cause this sudden heavy bleeding. However maybe my blood pressure has gone up some. It's high. The Endo and the family dr have seen the readings and have alsed if the reading are as high at home. At drs office it has been about 225/125 at home I get a variety of maybe so where between 170/112 to 165/95. I try not to dwell on my BP so I don't take it often. I try to remain as low stress as I can.

Nov 02, 2014
Suddenly started heavy bleeding after one year of no bleeding
by: Wray

Hi Susie M Progesterone does help the thyroid, simply because it suppresses any excess oestrogen. This hormone can slow the thyroid down. But whether the Armour is causing the bleeding I can't say, I've not come across this before. Have you asked your doctors? Are you taking the supplements for heavy bleeding? Some are in the energy boost, but it doesn't contain the bioflavonoids, and you will need more taurine as it only has 500mg/dose. Please increase this to 2000mg/day, see here. Have you looked through our page on Menstruation? The supplements are listed there. What is your Vitamin D level like? A lack of this can raise blood pressure, see here, here, here, here here and here. If you're taking an ACE inhibitor chances are your vitamin D is too low. Low vitamin D also affects the benefits of progesterone. It is possible to reverse type 2 diabetes. I suggest you try following the Ketogenic Diet. These are two more sites to look through here and here. The reason being it reduces glucose levels to the barest minimum, and the body uses ketones for energy. It's a very high fat, moderate to low protein and very low carb diet. Only the good fats should be used, i.e. MCT oil, coconut oil, butter, cocoa butter, olive oil or macadamia oil. The first four are saturated fats, the other two mono-unsaturated fats. The best is the MCT oil, an extract from coconut oil. The body converts the fatty acid into ketones, in fact the brain does better on these than glucose. MCT oil forms ketones more efficiently than the other oils. This will also reduce your BP. Take care Wray

Dec 05, 2015
Can I be post menopausal?
by: Susie M

Hi,

Since starring with Natpro in September 2012 I have never used less than 2 tsps/day, and the majority of the time I was on 400 mgs or higher of Natpro. I had about one year between about September of 2013 to September of 2014 of no bleeding at all, not even spotting. All other times inbetween including up to today I Have bleed normal, light sporting or heavy with clots on and off. None of that time did I have a period or what would be considered a period where you bleed for about a week then quit of 3 weeks. This would be sometimes a day or two or weeks of constant bleeding wether light or heavy.

I had some blood work for hormones done about 2 weeks ago and they seem to show I'm post menopausal just going off those blood test results. But I did not bleed for this year period while on a high dose of progesterone and vitamin D. I did not feel like I went into menopause by having an entire year with no bleeding naturally like I would have if I were not taking Natpro during this year of no bleeding. I'm asking if by being on the high doses of Natpro could that be the cause of my not bleeding, not having any kind of period for a year rather than me naturally going into menopause? So the question I have is am I now post menopausal or not really? The hormone blood tests and results the doctor ordered were as follows....
Fsh 87.5 mlU/ml
Testosterone, Free+Weakly Bound .07 ng/dl
Testosterone, serum 5 ng/dl
Testosterone, % Free+Weakly Bound 13.3 %
Estradiol, Serum, Ms 7.5 pg/ml

I've only had this one year of no bleeding all the time before and after there has been some. In fact, I have recently started back up with constant bleeding mostly heavy with clots for days at a time in the last 2 months. Before then for the last year it has mostly been constant spotting with bouts of normal amount of bleeding. I have been to see a doctor about my bleeding for many years now even before starting this thread and using Natpro.

I'm scheduled for a pelvic MRI in 3 days. To refresh, I have been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes in 2013 and with HBP but do not take any perscription meds for either. I use natural methods to control both. I'm no longer vegetarian and eat mostly organic and grass fed meat and dairy or raw dairy and stay away from as much processed as I can. Unfortunately, I could not do the diet you recommended for diabetes but I try to eat the best I can for my issues. I was diagnosed with hypothyroidism in October of 2014 and I'm on Armour 180 mgs but still have symptoms so I'm asking for an increase next visit.

In July of 2014 I had parathyroid surgery where they found two large tumors so I had 2 parathyroid glans removed. I was told I had hyperparathyroidisum for about 10 years. The dr knicked a blood vessel and I had to go back into surgery 2 days after the first surgery to fix it. The parathyroid doctors told me they thought I was not hypothyroid and that my bleeding issues and other symptoms like HBP were from the tumors and would resolve in a few weeks to months but they have not and I was retested and still am hypothyroid. Another problem I'm refreshing about is that I suffer hairloss. It's thinning. Ive had several other surgeries before and never had a problem with hair loss. I though maybe the double surgery so close together could be why the thinning accelerated but it's been too long and no regrowth and its sill thinning plus I had the thinning problem way before the surgery. I'm taking iron suplements to help with the iron loss form the constant bleeding. I'm taking 250 mgs elemental in a bisglycinate form on an empty stomach 4 hrs away from my thyroid medicine for better absorbsion.

I really think that my bleeding is from my hypothyroidism because it started back after that year of no bleeding when I began taking the thyroid medicine. I read the books from "stop the thyroid madness" from cover to cover several times. But just in case I'm wrong I'm trying to rule out other conditions.

I increased my vitiman D to 40,000 IU's/day and my Natpro to 1000 mgs last month and this time this combo along with many vitamin suplements for hair loss including both the myo and chiro inositol in high doses and NAC 5000 mgs, 3000 mgs Taurine taken for many, many months has not helped with my hair loss nor with the heavy clotted bleeding. My ferritin level was at 60 but dropped a few weeks ago to 45 because of the bleeding. Stop,the thyroid madness book say it needs to be 80 for hair to stop falling out and regrow. But that can't happen if I can't stop the constant bleeding, heavy or light.

I trying to deal with the bleeding from another angle where I'm getting the MRI or any other tests, I would like to let the dr know if I actually am post menopausal. My doctor and endocrinologist rolled their eyes at my telling them I'm using Natpro and vitamin D and all the other supplements. So asking them if Natpro could be why I did not bleed for a year or if I naturally went into menopause would not help answer that question. Do you think that if I stopped my bleeding with a consistent high dose of 400 mgs or more that all that time of stoping a period built up in a years time causing the uterus lining to build up so bad that it gushed with constant heavy clotted bleeding? Was it a whole year blood that neede to shed? I know from the hormone blood test results of my estradiol the newly heavy bleeding is not from estrogen dominance. It may have been estrogen dominance back in 2012 when I started taking Natpro but it could not be that now, right? I don't see how I could have fibroids if my estrogen is low and if I am, in fact, post menopausal because they would have shrunk with low estrogen. How could it be polyps if I went so long not bleeding after bleeding constantly for so long to begin with? If I had went to post menopause with no bleeding issues then after being post menopausal suddenly start bleeding then I could reason that I might have polyps, or even cancer. But my bleeding issues have been with me for almost 10 years. When I have discussed this with my doctor she just shrugs her shoulders and wants me to go thru many invasive tests that have very possible risks of damage and also my not be nessary if it is the hypothyroidism. I've got to stop the bleeding because it's leading to low iron which makes not only makes my thyroid medicine not work very well but is probably half of the cause of my hair loss. I don't have time, soon my hair will be gone. I can't let that happen. For me, that is worse than constant heavy bleeding. Wray, I hope you can help me with the post menopausal questions. I did want to mention that I was able to lower my HBP a lot yet not quite to normal yet but by your advice of taking sea salt twice a day. I also read a study done where celery was used to lower HBP. I eat 4 stalks of organic celery per day for one week then 3 weeks off repeating the pattern every month. I went from 225/115 to an average of about 140/85 so far.


Dec 05, 2015
Better explanation, I hope?
by: Susie M

Hi Wray,

I just read my last comment once it got posted and I'm so embarrassed at the long rambling along with all the spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc mistakes. I was typing it at 3:00 am and under the stress of it all. I hope you can forgive and read between the lines as to what I was trying to get across and the questions I had.

When you go to the doctors with a bleeding problem they ask about your history of periods and what kind of bleeding you are experiencing. Then of course they consider your age. I want to be able to understand if I'm post menopausal or still in perimnopause. Doctors also rely on test results over symptoms as if test results can't be wrong or be altered by what you might be taking or even the food you are eating. Even some tests can be non-accurate or flawed tests themselves.

I would like to get the best treatment I can for my bleeding and for my hair thinning problem but it needs to be based on my symptoms as well as the facts collected. I'm hoping you can help me figure out with my bleeding history I have sent you in this long thread I started with you 3 years ago when I was 53 yrs old up till now and with my hormone test results, if I'm peri-menopausal or post-menopausal. Any help with your opinion as to why I might be bleeding again is appreciated too.

I'm not one to blindly believe whatever doctors say and I feel like they only treat symptoms over wanting to find the reason you have the symptoms and then treating the actual cause. An example is high blood pressure medication. My doctors always want me to go back on them but never talk about what might be causing the HBP in the first place and treating that. I will never take HBP meds again. I suffered may side effects and even with dose increases and more different HBP medications added my blood pressure never got low enough to even be close to normal. Part of Medical school teaches how to write perscription medications and never the use of supplements. All perscription medications have possible side effects so I don't like to take them if there is another way of dealing with the problem. If you suffer a bad side effect from a perscription then all you are doing is trading one bad thing for a different bad thing you are suffering with. I agreed to take Armour perscription medication for my hypothyroidism because after researching I realize there is no non-perscription alternative. I chose Dessicated thyroid medicine over synthetic medication. I felt it was the best choice for me.

There are so many different possible reasons the doctors say for abnormal bleeding. The tests are ongoing and take lots of time and money and then sometimes the answer is never found after going thru all the tests of poking and prodding and appointment after appointment. I was sexually molested twice by two different doctors as a teenager, once at 13 and then at 15 yrs old. So I'm not thrilled at getting any invasive (99% are) testing especially if there is inconclusive results leading to even more invasive testing that I really can't emotionally bare.

I even had one doctor tell me I needed to go to a psychiatrist to get over my past sexual trauma because I was being ridiculous to not submit to vaginal testing and exploration. I will never "get over" sexual abuse! That is why I'm starting with an MRI that I'm paying out of pocket first then depending on the results I will do a non-transvaginal ultrasound. Then I'll see after that what testing I can do. All the while my hair loss is continuing and the bleeding is continuing. I'm running out of time here! In the mean time, I have a future next apt with my Endocranologist to ask for an increase in my thyroid medicine which he will make me stay at for at least 4 to 6 weeks without allowing another increase. I'm currently on 180 mgs.


From reading the Stop the thyroid madness books ( there were two) I believe that I was on my starting thyroid dose way too long as well as the length between the increases and I had the loop-back (?) where I suffered worse symptoms than before taking the thyroid medicine. I noticed that is when my bleeding started up after a year of not bleeding. I actually quit taking the Armour for about a month or so because I felt it was not helping me after being on it for 10 months or so. And I had the parathyroid surgery thinking that I was misdiagnosed with the hypothyroidism. After being off the thyroid medication I started the heavy bleeding with clots again and my hair loss increased and cold feet and tiredness returned. So I asked my regular doctor for a tsh, freeT 3 and 4 blood test. I did not want to tell my Endo I quit the thyroid medication. It came back that my tsh was 7.5 and my free T3 and 4 had not changed and were not in the optimal range they should have been in order to not have hypothyroid symptoms. The books say you know you are on the correct medicine when not only your blood tests are in optimal range but that all your symptoms are gone. Hair loss and period problems are some of hypothyroid symptonpms. But is my abnormal bleeding a period problem or I'm I no longer having actual periods, am I still peri or post-menopausal?


My parathyroid ( different than the thyroid gland) surgery removal did not fix my hairloss nor bleeding nor HBP as the parathyroid doctors expected and as it should have then that tells me the tumors were not the cause of these symptoms. So it is either my hypothyroidism which is a possible cause by not being on high enough dose of medication along with low iron from the bleeding or.......some other reason. What exactly the cause is, I'm not so sure. I could use your opinion that I highly value as to what it could be and how to fix, at least, the bleeding. I hope this post was much easier to understand and less rambling.

Click here to add your own comments

Join in and write your own page! It's easy to do. How? Simply click here to return to Progesterone faq.


Search over 7,500 pages on this site...